Wednesday 19 May 2021

Arguing with Authoritarians

    There are a few themes that come up again and again whenever I find myself arguing certain subjects with people on the internet and elsewhere, and I think I have finally figured out what ties them all together: authoritarianism. This came as a bit of a surprise to me, because many of these people present themselves as very much anti-authoritarian, rejecting the advice of those elitist academics and urging you to "do your own research". But what makes them authoritarian isn't that they necessarily respect any particular authority; it's that they tend to approach things with what I'm calling an authoritarian epistemology, one that's more concerned with power than with truth.

    To start, it seems to me that the model of knowledge and how it is acquired works something like this: One person knows something, and then tells it to another person, and now that other person knows it too. This isn't a bad theory as far as it goes, a decent first approximation for a many simple interactions. Its chief failing is that it's incomplete, but I'll get to that later. For now, the point is that to the authoritarian, this is how it works: someone who knows (an authority) transmits knowledge to someone who doesn't.

    So why do I say the authoritarian is about power? Because in this model, the authority isn't just sharing knowledge; they're actually telling someone what to think. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the other person has to believe them, because of course people give orders they're not authorized to give all the time, and people disobey orders all the time too. All I mean here is that the authoritarian tends to regard most or even all interactions this way, as attempted exercises of power by either an authority or someone aspiring to authority.

    And this explains why the "do your own research" crowd so bitterly resents people whose job it is to tell us stuff: the news media and scientists/experts. Because they see the transmission of knowledge in terms of power hierarchies, they take it as an affront when someone tries to tell them something. After all, who are these "experts" to tell me what to think? They're not the boss of me!

    Hence the sneering contempt if you happen to mention something that comports with the Official Story: "Hah! you believe the mainstream media?" See, when you regard every utterance as an assertion of power, then believing what people tell you is a sign of weakness, and conversely, refusing to believe what you are told is strength. It's a year-round form of April Fools Day skepticism, that sees discourse as a childish game of tricking other people into believing falsehoods while trying to avoid believing anything anyone might tell you.

    When you approach discourse this way, any argument becomes a personal attack, an attempt to exploit your perceived weakness. One may peacefully "agree to disagree", but by golly if someone tries to force me to change my mind about something, I need to defend myself, right? So it's almost inevitable that someone with this mindset will come to identify with their opinions.

    Which is another aspect of this authoritarianism that I've been troubled by for some time, the tendency to think of opinions as a matter of identity rather than the result of deliberative process. Ideally, describing yourself as a liberal or a conservative should just be shorthand for "my opinions on issues tend to be more [liberal/conservative]" but very often I find people saying things like, "I'm a conservative, so I'm against abortion" as if being conservative is the cause of the opinion, rather than a description of it. And just as often, I find that regardless of whether they consciously identify themselves with a group or movement, the authoritarians I argue with will try to pigeonhole me as belonging to whatever group it is they happen to identify as their opposition. 

    That's psychological projection, obviously, and of course we all do it to some extent. Indeed, it was projection of my own presumptions about what knowledge is and the purpose of debate that kept me so baffled about the authoritarian mindset for so long. I assumed they were arguing to provide evidence and logic that would lead me to adopt their view as my own, or to gain sufficient understanding of my own position so as to make a better informed decision as to whether to reject or adopt it. And so I was regularly astonished at the sorts of arguments they would make and what to me seemed like brazen hypocrisy.

    For example, I was recently arguing with someone who recited some mortality numbers she claimed were from Statistics Canada, intended to show that the pandemic wasn't real because there was no significant change over previous years. Since she hadn't provided a link or reference to the original source, I went and googled for some appropriate keywords, and found that Stats Can had in fact published a report on excess deaths related to the pandemic. Yet when I cited this source back, with a link, my opponent dismissed it as government propaganda that couldn't be trusted. Note that this was the very same government agency she had cited to prove her position, which she glibly dropped as not credible the instant it went against her. What could possibly be more hypocritical?

    But that hypocrisy disappears when you understand the authoritarian mindset, which values power and doesn't really consider "truth" except as the set of beliefs that distinguishes us (the good guys) from them, and which considers debate to be a kind of assault, a struggle to maintain one's own beliefs/identity against attacks while trying to weaken the resolve/identity of one's attackers. It's not about truth for them, but strength and determination, and all the little rhetorical devices we use in argumentation are just weapons to be used against the enemy, and to be deflected or dodged when they are used against us. There is, after all, nothing in the least bit hypocritical about trying to stab you with my epee while trying to parry your attempts to stab me. My opponent wasn't really making the claim that Stats Can is or isn't a reliable authority; she was simply trying to protect herself from having her Deeply Held Belief weakened by attempting to demoralize and discredit any belief/person (remember they tend to blur together beliefs and identities) that might appear to threaten it.

    I think this is why they use so many basic logical fallacies in argument, and why it doesn't bother them in the least to do so. If you call them on it, pointing out "That's an ad hominem fallacy", they don't pay any real attention to the substance of why ad hominem is a form of non sequitur because the conclusion ("you're wrong") does not follow from the antecedent ("you're stupid"). Rather, they just pick up the term "ad hominem", dimly aware that it has something to do with calling someone stupid, and use it as a weapon against you any time they perceive you to be calling them stupid. And there are countless other examples of terms with legitimate meanings that get coopted this way, stripped of nuance and wielded as cudgels not to prove any substantive point but to wear down and humiliate those perceived as attackers. 


    I'm not sure how best to deal with the authoritarian mindset. They aren't arguing to convince you they're right; they're just arguing to prevent you from convincing them they're wrong, and so all they need to do is spread doubt. (Same strategy as the tobacco companies "questioning" the link between cigarettes and cancer, or the oil industry "questioning" global warming, or creationists' "teaching the controversy", etc.) The sad irony in all this is that, to the non-authoritarian, doubt is already in plentiful supply, and it isn't a weakness but a core assumption about everything. You can't win an argument with me by making me doubt my position if you don't do something to reduce the doubts I have about your position.

9 comments:

  1. Don't try to convince them, try to annoy them. Like you did by quoting actual Stats Canada data. They are inconvincible. I had a discussion about Saskatchewan being predominantly Christian (Catholic or Protestant) until about 1970, quoting Stats Canada census data. They had no source to back their claims that it was never predominantly Christian but were certain that the census data was biased. It was fun.

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    1. If it was just about them, I wouldn't bother. But these debates (loosely described) take place in a semi-public forum with multiple participants and passive audience members, and the war of ideas is always about numbers. Hence the goal cannot be simply to annoy the opponent, because that will likely also annoy people in the audience who might have been won over.

      The trick is to recognize that they aren't arguing, they're POSTURING. That is, they're trying to present themselves as fearless, strong, knowledgeable, etc. and the only real appeal of the ideas they're espousing is that adopting them is a way to look fearless, strong, knowledgeable or whatever. So I aim to undermine that posture. The guy who announces that Big Pharma is suppressing the cure to cancer and smugly intones "Follow the money..." like he's Deep Throat with some kind of serious inside knowledge? Reveal his ignorance about cancer and how it's treated, make him look ignorant and foolish instead of informed and savvy. Not to hurt HIS feelings (though deterring him from future posturing is also a benefit) but to take away the appeal of his claim, so that nobody watching will think it looks informed and savvy to espouse such beliefs.

      It's about recognizing what makes these ideas spread, that it's not about the ideas themselves but the packaging.

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    2. What... Big Pharma isn't about the Money? *Winks* Whether or not they're suppressing Cures, I couldn't say, but keeping people dependent on their products sure is lucrative and getting Docs to prescribe the addictive kinds makes for a lifelong Client. Well people just don't make as much to profit off of. So... personally, I don't Trust Big Pharma's motives and what they lobby against.

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    3. I wasn't trying to say Big Pharma is at all a nice collection of companies. Rather, the point is a more specific one about "the cure for cancer" being suppressed, which is an attractive position to adopt because it lets you pretend you're in on deep dark secrets, but is actually quite ignorant about the nature of cancer, medical research, and human nature. Having been through (successful!) treatment for Stage III colon cancer myself, I'm particularly dismayed by this kind of posturing. There are hundreds of different kinds of cancer with many different causes, and what's more, we HAVE cured a whole bunch of them. And as much as Big Pharma might LIKE to suppress any of these cures, they aren't all-powerful at keeping secrets that thousands of very motivated scientists are busily trying to discover. You can keep YOUR discoveries secret, but you can't stop some other researcher in some other lab from discovering the same thing. (Patents? Sure, but patents have to be PUBLISHED, the very opposite of keeping something secret.)

      I addressed this very issue in this blog post: https://tcantine.blogspot.com/2015/08/trust-experts-theyre-not-that-smart.html

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    4. Tom, Congrats on beating the Big C, my Dear DIL survived Stage 4 Breast Cancer and a Friend of mine just survived Leukemia. There are indeed great Survival rates for many types and as you said, there are so many types so 'curing' all of them would keep the Scientists and Medical Community busy a very long time. I agree with what you wrote in this response, I honestly don't know if Big Pharma has been successful at suppressing Cures or not, but they sure do try to prevent the Options of Holistic methods and also Meds like Medicinal MJ, if they can't get a cut of that action... and that part upsets me tremendously. A lot of Natural Methods have Cured people or help them live longer and have more Quality of Life. I was failing miserably with advanced Diabetes, Western Meds were not working and Insurance refused to pay for Eastern Meds, Western Specialists told me to accept my Pancreas was failing and I wouldn't get better... so I paid out of Pocket and began to improve, since my Chinese Doc said we would partner with my Body to do what it intends to do Naturally without even being told to... Heal. I also switched Western Specialists and found one who agreed the Mindset of myself and my Eastern Medical Doc was working, she is now Partnering with us and changed my entire Med Regimen to a less invasive and less 'permanent' one dependent on Big Pharma... I'm almost completely off Insulin dependency now and doing great. It just makes me wonder what would have happened had I resigned myself to the Doom/Gloom you must be on our Meds with side effects for Life BS I was told for several Years and kept worsening my condition? I'm glad our Scientists keep on keeping on, inventing Cures and finding what works best... once Trust is broken it's hard to earn it back. Thanks for responding Tom, I like have these deep discussions about important issues.

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    5. Thanks, but I haven't really beaten the Big C yet. Just THIS form of cancer probably won't get me. Ultimately the only way to beat cancer is to die of something else first.

      I'm not going to comment on the merits of any particular treatments or approaches, or get into the whole "Western Medicine" debate here. I will observe generally that many of the anti-Big Pharma conspiracy theories seem to be heavily influenced by the peculiarly pecuniary presuppositions of U.S. private health care. In that kind of market system, where private insurance companies are adept at making externalities for others to deal with, the absence of a cure is someone else's problem, and maybe we can even get out of paying for treatment.

      It's a little different under a single-payer system. Our provincial health care provider can't pass off expenses to someone else, so it is incentivized to seek out more cost-effective therapies wherever possible. (This is one reason my flu shot every year is free in Alberta; AHC would rather spend money on vaccinating me than hospitalizing me or someone I infect, so it makes good financial sense.)

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  2. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  3. Comment deleted because it was unrelated to the post. Please, people, don't use the comment threads to advertise products or services if you aren't going to contribute to the conversation. That's not what they're for.

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  4. The Politics and Posturing about anything is just so predictable, isn't it? When I realize a dialogue with someone is futile and they're going to argue, mostly because they have this need to be right, even if all facts and truths can't support their opinion or belief system... I just shut it down immediately with four simple words they can't argue with: You could be right... Yes, it's Fun to see their reaction, because, yes, I'm messing with them and just avoiding the drama and headache they become. It is troubling to me however to see how totally Mental some of the Far Right have become and it is alarming because they truly seem to believe the most outrageous stuff and there's no dialogue one can enter into with someone whose that far gone. It can become real dangerous ground when the Insanity and Lies become like a Cult Religion to those people who embrace it all and are willing to resort to violence and can't handle the Truth. Scary stuff, especially since it's getting more prevalent and they've really fallen deeply down the Rabbit Hole!

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