Friday 22 October 2021

Making Economics Too Simple

     Reading about the recent Nobel Prize in Economics (and the reaction to it) has got me thinking again about how I was taught introductory physics in high school.  They started with the basics of Newtonian mechanics, Force = Mass times Acceleration, and so on. In order to get these ideas across, you kind of have to simplify a lot. In particular, you need to pretend friction doesn't exist. Now, friction isn't an exception to Newton's laws, but rather just a complex manifestation of it, but it really does make the math much harder to grasp, and so it helps to just ignore it for the sake of explaining the basic concepts of mass and acceleration and momentum and all that.

    Why did the Nobel Prize talk remind me of this? Well, it comes down to the way we were taught introductory microeconomics, with those nice simple supply and demand curves, and how it was presented as practically a Law of Nature that as the price of a commodity goes up, demand goes down. That is such a simple, elegant and straightforward principle that it's really hard to imagine it being otherwise. It's almost as powerful as the idea of objects in motion tending to continue in a straight line. After all, if the price of apples goes up, you're gonna buy fewer apples, either looking for alternatives or just deciding to do without apples for now.

    Half of this year's Nobel Prize went to David Card "for his empirical contributions to labour economics". It had been assumed that, as with raising the price of apples leading to lower demand for apples, raising the minimum wage would reduce demand for labour and thus cause higher unemployment. But Card and his collaborator (the late Alan Krueger) decided to test this by comparing two very similar areas as one raised its minimum wage and the other left its unchanged. Surprisingly to the microeconomics dogmatists, there was no significant change in unemployment, and in some cases, employment went up.

    I'm not going to talk much here about Card's actual work, except to point out that it should have come as no surprise, even to the armchair theorists whose basic assumptions weren't wrong, but like the high schooler first learning physics and ignoring friction, neglected to think through all the ways the assumptions might actually play out in the real world.

    The principle assumption, of course, is that players in the economy are trying to maximize their utility with the scarce resources at their disposal. The simplest and most obvious way this plays out can be seen with the original apples example: if the price of apples goes up, then the utility I get per dollar from apples goes down, while the potential utility of my dollars remains more or less constant (that is, I can still get the same amount of stuff besides apples for those dollars). In other words, I'd rather keep a few dollars that I might otherwise have spent on apples.

    This is correct as far as it goes, but it doesn't go as far as it needs to to understand wages in all cases. Sure, it might apply to the wages you pay to someone to perform personal services for you, such as mowing your lawn or cleaning your house, and you might well consume less of those services as their price goes up. But for most businesses, labour is a factor of production; a business hires someone to produce value which is then sold to the consumer at a profit.

    Let's say I own a facility with enough space and equipment to have ten workers producing widgets. For simplicity's sake, assume each worker can produce 1 widget an hour, which I can sell for $20. And suppose I pay each worker $10 an hour, so I make a profit of $10 on each widget sold. (There are other costs, of course, such as the space and equipment, but we'll ignore those as constants that don't affect the analysis here.) If the wages I must pay to my employees go up to $15, all that means is that I only make $5 profit on each widget. It does not mean I lay off any of my workers, because that would just mean forgoing the $5 they earn me per hour. The only person who's losing out by a rise in wages in this case is me, because I'm making less profit.

    Now, it may be that my profit margin on each unit is already low. Maybe with all my other costs, I'm only making $4 profit per widget. In that case, raising my wages cost per unit by 5$ means I'll actually lose money on each widget I produce, and yes, in that case I'll probably shut down and lay off my workers. Aha! Unemployment goes up then, right?

    Well, no, not necessarily. Remember those supply and demand curves, and that they apply to the whole market, not just an individual producer. Maybe I'll drop out of the market, but that means production drops below demand, which means the price rises. It probably won't rise high enough to bring me back into the market, but one of my more efficient competitors will hire the workers I laid off and scoop up more profits until their increased production brings the price back down again.

    But yeah, maybe some workers will be laid off and not replaced, depending on a whole lot of factors, but once we start looking at a whole lot of factors and whole markets, another factor comes into play: workers (including workers in other industries and sectors) now have more disposable income, and will likely be spending that on buying stuff. So demand rises, and as production increases to meet that demand, workers get hired. 


    I'm not going to claim that this is exactly how it will play out in every case at all times when the minimum wage is raised. (In fact, I'm not actually in favour of minimum wages at all, since I much prefer the idea of a minimum income structured as a citizen dividend.) But the point here is that those who authoritatively intone very basic principles from Economics 101 as arguments for or against some policy are almost always committing the same kind of mistake as someone who tries to ignore friction, turbulence and all those other complications when trying to apply Newton's Laws. Real world economies are much more complex and those very same basic laws of supply and demand can produce results that seem utterly inconsistent with the simplest application of those laws. 

48 comments:

  1. Thankyou. Life is much more complicated than Samuelson's Economics 101. In many cases when price goes up, demand remains relatively unchanged. In some cases, when the price goes up, demand goes up as it signals something made it more desirable.
    Conservatives oppose increasing minimum wage not because it won't work but because they are afraid it will work.

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  2. "" I much prefer the idea of a minimum income structured as a citizen dividend.""

    And that thing that money are about value-transfer,
    but what is the value of money given "free of charge"???
    do not and will not stop you and likes of you.
    Even though History already brimming with cases of grim consequencies of such a free of back-thought play with economy.

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    Replies
    1. What is the value of dividends given for ownership of a profitable corporation?

      The minimum income model I advocate is based on citizens collective ownership of the resources managed by the Crown on our behalf. It is no different in principle from dividends from any other privately held corporation.

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    2. \\What is the value of dividends given for ownership of a profitable corporation?

      It's good that you are open to a thoughtfull discussion with logic and facts (I hope, nowaday too many people have that habit to call people "trolls", just that moment they have nothing to answer to L&F combo).

      Well, if you'd tryed to think about it for a little -- you'd quickly found an answer yourself.
      How people became deserving to have "dividends given for ownership of a profitable corporation"? If not with providing some good sum of money they invest into that corporation?

      Value on the Entrance, Value on the Exit. (if you are lucky enough)


      \\The minimum income model I advocate is based on citizens collective ownership of the resources managed by the Crown on our behalf. It is no different in principle from dividends from any other privately held corporation.

      Oh, Crown.
      Probably, instead of trying to argue about it.
      It's better to refer to that flick from Fry&Lorry Show exactly about that setup.

      Delete
    3. Heh... so that is as much as amount of your wits mustered goes.

      Well, have no further questions. And thank you for this boring confirmation -- that all people who dare to talk about such socialistic stuff -- that is just a predictor of amount of grey matter in their respective brains. Not their fault. Probably.

      PS Feel free to call me "troll" and close anonimous comments alltogether.:)

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    4. What need would I have to call you a troll, when you put your smugnorance on display for anyone reading this thread to see plainly?

      I get the sense that your entire argument (and I use the term generously) rests on the unshakeable conviction: "Socialism bad!" combined with your presumption that anything which might benefit everyone must be socialism.

      So let me address your objection that shareholders only become shareholders by paying money to buy shares. That's not actually true. People obtain shares in companies by contributing something of value. Sometimes it's a valuable asset (land, equipment, etc.) and sometimes it's labour (sometimes called "sweat equity")

      So in my model, where citizens are constituted as shareholders in the state, what is it that citizens contribute for their shares? Most broadly, it's our liberty (as I wrote in the essay https://tcantine.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-liberty-dividend-why-we-ought-to.html), but also it's our equitable ownership of those actual assets of the State: land, natural resources, infrastructure.

      (I don't know where you're from, but I live in Canada where we use the word "Crown" to refer to assets of Her Majesty, but that doesn't mean we think Dear Ol' Liz personally owns all this stuff and can do with it whatever the hell she wants. We presume a duty to manage these things for the benefit of the people generally, just as one would expect of the government if we were constituted as a republic instead of a monarchy. We just frame it differently.)

      I should point out that my reasons for believing that everyone has some property interest in these resources does not derive from Marx, but from the granddaddy of property rights, John Locke, according to whom you can claim unowned material to mix with your labour and thus make yours provided you leave as much and as good for anyone else who wants to do the same.

      That proviso implies that everyone else has a presumptive right to the unowned stuff (land, trees, minerals, etc.), and it so happens that the State exists in large part to manage disputes over who gets to own stuff. In Common Law tradition, the Crown owns ultimate title to land; in the U.S. the federal government does. Same deal.

      To take ALL the land and all the resources without providing compensation to the people who are left unable to claim a share themselves is an injustice. That is why I argue that the State ought to treat them as shareholders in its management of these things, and provide them with appropriate dividends from the proceeds. The actual USE of land and resources would continue under free market principles, but the State would actually be run "like a business" to earn income from its renting out collective property, instead of giving it out below market value as a subsidy to profitable businesses.

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    5. \\What need would I have to call you a troll, when you put your smugnorance on display for anyone reading this thread to see plainly?

      Let's call it even for today, can we? :)
      Or... you can score as many as you want of bonus points at my expense here. As a gandicap for my "foul language".

      I think that that, that we are of different political views can make our discussion only better.
      If a little bit spicy.
      Isn't it? ;-)


      \\I get the sense that your entire argument (and I use the term generously) rests on the unshakeable conviction: "Socialism bad!"

      Believe me, there is a reason.
      Well, wait, you DO NOT need to believe me.
      I am from so-called post-soviet world.
      We learned ALL about living under "socialism".
      ALL and ANY fantasies you have about it -- we feeled with our flesh and bones.
      Maybe not that definite and decisive way as kambodjians under Red Khmers, but still pretty enough.

      So, be advised, that is not talk with your regular dreamer.
      But with burned in battles veteran. ;)


      \\ combined with your presumption that anything which might benefit everyone must be socialism.

      "Benefit everyone". Yeah, yeah. That is what they was feeding us... starting from kindergarden, in USSR.

      So, well, continue-continue, babbling about my "pre-assumtions". :)))



      \\So let me address your objection that shareholders only become shareholders by paying money to buy shares. That's not actually true. People obtain shares in companies... -->> by contributing something of value. <<--

      That is not good method of refutation -- with PROVING opponents point right away.
      That highlighted is MY actual point.


      \\...but also it's our equitable ownership of those actual assets of the State: land, natural resources, infrastructure.

      Did you rewatched that Fry&Lorry flick?
      Or I need to google it for you?


      Other than that, thank you for your trivia expalnation.
      Feel free to ask anything you want to know about our hemisphere. In respect for that.

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    6. I am a cancer survivor. That means I am fully qualified to state authoritatively that having cancer sucks. It does NOT mean I am qualified to diagnose what you have as cancer.

      I'm not going to dispute your authoritative opinion that "socialism sucks", but I don't see any reason to trust your diagnosis that this or that thing you don't like is socialism.

      As for obtaining shares in a company by offering something of value, I have argued in other posts on this blog that this is exactly what we do when we constitute a state. We invest our liberty, in that we authorize the state to enact laws which bind us, and in exchange we expect to realize a net gain in liberty, as those laws prune away liberties which interfere with each other.

      And I will point out that this is not merely an investment of abstract liberty, but of actual, real material property, because we authorize the state to adjudicate our disputes about who owns what, and to make and enforce the rules of property itself. ALL of our property claims ultimately come back to what conventions will be recognized in a court.

      So when I say that we should each of us be constituted as a shareholder in the entity of the state, I base that not on "socialistic" ideals of The Collective, but ultimately on the interests of the individual and the bargain, the social contract we make with each other. What do I as an individual give up, and what am I owed in return? And if I do not get what I am owed, what possible duty can I have to obey or respect the "laws" imposed upon me?

      Delete
    7. \\I am a cancer survivor. That means I am fully qualified to state authoritatively that having cancer sucks. It does NOT mean I am qualified to diagnose what you have as cancer.

      (somewhat) witty argument, at last.
      Though I think there'd be fallacy If scratch it.
      So, will not.



      \\I'm not going to dispute your authoritative opinion that "socialism sucks", but I don't see any reason to trust your diagnosis that this or that thing you don't like is socialism.

      Not "things I don't like". Things that ALREADY happened, with big masses of people being involved, traces and evidances scattered all around. Bad things.

      That is like... I see that strict evidance-based thinking is hard for you, so I'll show it with pictures.

      There was event of collision of Earth with asteroid. That had drastical consequencies. And as an evidance leaved enormous crater.

      But here comes some proponent of "asteroids cannot hit Earth", because it made of sweet potato paste or something, and if it come, all will be happy to recieve such a sweet freebie, and not burning in flames and die from bone-crashing shockwaves.
      And to all evidances and facts just stating "that is just you survivor bias, I do not believe you... la-la-la, la-la-la, and I don't hear you... and la-la-la, la-la-la, I will not listen to you... and go away, and do not disturb my happy dream about heavenly sweet potatos".


      Or... closer to your experience.
      Let's say you'd try to persued someone with "I survived cancer, believe me, it's nasty... so you better quit smoking".
      And that one would answer "you survived it? See, that means cancer is not that big deal as you trying to preach... go away, do not disturb me happily indulging myself with simple attavistic sucking pleasures".



      \\We invest our liberty

      Liberty is unfungible. By definition.
      But you want to (re)declare it being fungible?
      Ha-ha, what I can say, do it.



      \\And I will point out that this is not merely an investment of abstract liberty, but of actual, real material property, because we authorize the state to adjudicate our disputes about who owns what, and to make and enforce the rules of property itself. ALL of our property claims ultimately come back to what conventions will be recognized in a court.

      Yap. Slavery.


      \\So when I say that we should each of us be constituted as a shareholder in the entity of the state, I base that not on "socialistic" ideals of The Collective, but ultimately on the interests of the individual and the bargain, the social contract we make with each other. What do I as an individual give up, and what am I owed in return? And if I do not get what I am owed, what possible duty can I have to obey or respect the "laws" imposed upon me?


      Welcome to the Private Police | A Bit of Fry and Laurie | BBC

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNoS2BU6bbQ
      · In this sketch, a man returns home from vacation to find strange changes to his local police station.

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    8. Yeah, I've seen that sketch. It is not relevant, except in demonstrating that you do not actually understand my proposal.

      Your criticism seems to boil down to a vague general condemnation of "socialism", without providing any specificity about what you understand socialism to be, or what aspects of socialism are harmful and why. I know that cancer feels awful and can kill you, and I'm vaguely aware that it involves cells dividing when they shouldn't, but it would be foolish for me to come out against all cell division as inherently unhealthy; there is a healthy way and an unhealthy way for cells to divide.

      Similarly, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to manage economies. Centrally directed Soviet-style or Maoist command economies are disastrous; free markets, in contrast, are much more efficient at identifying and satisfying needs/demands. I don't think we disagree on that. And it is that premise upon which I rely in advocating for a citizen dividend: free markets depend on the participation of as many players as possible, amalgamating the individual preferences of everyone into an efficient allocation of resources. When you exclude people from participation in the market (which is what happens if large chunks of the population have no money at all), markets become less free and less efficient.

      It may surprise you to learn that arch-capitalist economist Milton Friedman advocated for a version of UBI, which he called "negative income tax". This is not a "socialist" idea.

      As for the investment of liberty and liberty not being fungible, that misses the point. Something does not need to be fungible to be valuable, as any understanding of consideration in contract law will make clear. A promise not to exercise a right can be valid consideration in a contract.

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    9. \\Yeah, I've seen that sketch. It is not relevant, except in demonstrating that you do not actually understand my proposal.

      What I do not understand?
      That there'd be millions of landowners. And there'd be a court, which will be a bottleneck. Where it will be dead simple to decide who is "more even" and deserve his case to be listen in that court, and who is not.
      That there could be possible "amassing" of that "freedom tokens". This or that way.
      And there'd be a police state, to make it sure thing that everybody... means poor first of all would know their place.
      Well, for such a "divine" state of things you do not need to dream about it even. There ALREADY is states where that principle executed. Like North Korea. Or Russia.

      Or... as it was in USSR. "All around is YOUR property, citizen! But, it only for looky-looky and no touchy-touchy. To Be proud of living in a country of Galloping(who knows where and for what -- only Party knows) Socialism!"



      \\Your criticism seems to boil down to a vague general condemnation of "socialism", without providing any specificity about what you understand socialism to be, or what aspects of socialism are harmful and why.

      And that is NOT accidental.
      That is proponents of socialism who >>>NEVER<<< have time to describe what they want to build in details. Sufficient details. That would allow to build and try Proof of Concept... before starting whole-through change of paradigm in all country.

      For example, in USSR there was different kinds of socialism proclaimed: military socialism, socailsm with a human's face, developed socialism, etc.
      But there never was thorough explanation of what it even mean.
      Only KGB... that would come to anyone who'd try to ask such questions. Even if while sitting alone at his own kitchen table. :)


      \\And it is that premise upon which I rely in advocating for a citizen dividend: free markets depend on the participation of as many players as possible, >>>amalgamating the individual preferences<<< of everyone into an efficient allocation of resources

      I bet you know that famous cartoon (or can google for it).
      "You should be more EXPLICIT in this point".
      Where one scientist explaining his theory to another one before a blackboard, where apart from endless rows of equations stands out "And here... miracle occurs". ;)


      \\It may surprise you to learn that arch-capitalist economist Milton Friedman advocated for a version of UBI, which he called "negative income tax". This is not a "socialist" idea.

      You should open Marx's book. At that page where he describing idea of some sneaky capitalist -- who decided to pay to his workers NOT with a currency, but with special tokens -- which then can be used ONLY in his own stores and to pay rent for his own dwelling.
      Sweat dream of any capitalist that is (go look what they do in Google and Apple campuses... isn't that Socialism you want so dearly?).



      \\As for the investment of liberty and liberty not being fungible, that misses the point. Something does not need to be fungible to be valuable

      Then... you shoting in your own leg here.After that speach about "miraculous markets" that will solve everything, especially.
      Because market can work ONLY with fungible things.
      And for that even unfungible things (like copyright or human rights even(with human trafficing, etc)) market tryes to convert into fungible.
      And fails EXACTLY at that point where it fails to acomplish that.(all that kinds of totalitarian/authoritarian states out there)


      \\A promise not to exercise a right can be valid consideration in a contract.

      Yeah... like, trade with your right to breath.

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    10. Okay, there are a whole lot of misunderstandings here, and I'm not sure where to begin without just saying go take some first year law courses. It feels like you are deliberately misinterpreting things just to have something to argue about, but it doesn't benefit anyone for me to assume that's the case, so I'll try to explain some things anyway.

      Let's start with the word "fungible". It doesn't mean merely that something can be traded for something else; it means that it is functionally identical. If I borrow ten dollars from you today in the form of a ten dollar bill, and pay you back with two fives, I have fully satisfied the debt because dollars are fungible: one dollar is exactly the same as any other, and it's meaningless to complain you didn't get the same ten dollars back because dollars have no identity, only quantity. Most trade goods are NOT fungible with each other, or else there'd be no point in trading them in the first place: You could eat your hand-made hats, and I could wear my home-pressed cider on my head. Trade happens because goods and services are NOT fungible; fungible units of value like dollars greatly facilitate trade.

      The fungibility of dollars also vastly simplifies the distribution of profits of a corporation, because by putting a dollar value on every contribution (including in-kind contributions of sweat equity, material or real property), shares can be calculate just using arithmetic, and profits in dollars can be divvied up pro rata instead.

      And this is what I am suggesting as a formal structure for UBI. The state already earns revenue in dollars through property and income taxes, resource royalties, Crown corporations and such, and it reinvests most of that revenue in performing the various functions of government. I am arguing that, like any other business corporation, the government could (indeed should) pay a dividend to its citizens (to whom it is also democratically accountable, just as the board of directors of a corporation is supposed to be accountable to the shareholders).

      As for trading the right to breathe, you deliberately chose a problematic example to discredit the principle, which is really bad reasoning and should be called out. But in fact a promise to hold you breath for some length of time WOULD be good consideration in a contract. If I agreed to pay you $5 to hold you breath for a minute, paid you the $5 and then you didn't hold your breath, I could indeed sue you for breach of contract.

      When you object to my description of investing our liberty in the state, it sounds to me like you're not just objecting to socialism, but to the very notion of law itself. Are you in fact an anarchist?

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    11. \\\Okay, there are a whole lot of misunderstandings here, and I'm not sure where to begin without just saying go take some first year law courses. It feels like you are deliberately misinterpreting things just to have something to argue about, but it doesn't benefit anyone for me to assume that's the case, so I'll try to explain some things anyway.

      That's it. You talking about theory, I'm talking about life.
      You talking from perspective of wealthy and self-confident country where all that theoretical things just work -- and you forgot it long ago how hard it was to establish that rule of law and human rights safety nets.
      And I... well, you already know. But trying to ignore that fact. Or must I admit that you are *incapable* of understanding that there could be any other standing point than yours?


      \\Let's start with the word "fungible". It doesn't mean merely that something can be traded for something else; it means that it is functionally identical.

      That's why things do have *prices*.
      And every thing that achieved price label becomes fungible.
      That is basis on which free market economy stands and flourishing.

      Recent emergens of NFT (non-fungible tokens, ha-ha) cryes about it.

      In short: Nonfungible things become fungible through mediation of money.



      \\just as the board of directors of a corporation is supposed to be accountable to the shareholders).

      Minority shareholders too?
      Reguar emploees too?
      Customers too?
      Some bystanders on the street too?
      Some economical rivals too?


      \\As for trading the right to breathe, you deliberately chose a problematic example to discredit the principle, which is really bad reasoning and should be called out.

      "If Logic do not suits my needs... da hell with that logic", ha?


      \\But in fact a promise to hold you breath for some length of time WOULD be good consideration in a contract. If I agreed to pay you $5 to hold you breath for a minute, paid you the $5 and then you didn't hold your breath, I could indeed sue you for breach of contract.

      Yeah. And that is not theoretical.
      There is such contracts -- agreement to withhold own rights to be safe, when coming into some dangerous situation.
      Like bangy-jumping or parashute jumps, or swiming with sharks, or etc.

      My question. How DO YOU propose to resolve such case -- when people would be pressed to give up their UBI, their "dividents of a citizen", with such contracts?
      Do you see it as just-O.K.-practice if people would be factually enslaved with such binding contracts?

      Take your time. Think about it. Before answering.


      \\When you object to my description of investing our liberty in the state, it sounds to me like you're not just objecting to socialism, but to the very notion of law itself. Are you in fact an anarchist?

      Law that is not independent entity. That is construct of society.
      And that'll be rediculous to argue with such obviousness...
      but how can I know, what if you'd do.
      But I will not hold my breath. ;)

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    12. Theory vs. Life: I don't know if you've noticed, but we're TALKING here. That is, we're engaging in THEORY. It's all very good if you think you know what the Real World is REALLY like but if you cannot articulate it into words, that is, formulate a theory to account for and explain your experience, then your Real World experience is no more helpful than my observation that having cancer sucks. I'll still rely on the theory-based diagnosis and recommendations of the oncologist, thank you very much.

      Moreover, you're falling into the trap of privileging your experience as REAL, and dismissing mine as just theoretical, which of course to YOU it would have to be since the only access you have to it is through my words (i.e. theory). Let me just mention, then, that I have not merely studied stuff in school. I have practiced and taught law, I have incorporated companies and negotiated contracts, and otherwise engaged in real world economic activity. My "theory" is every bit as much informed by the Real World as yours is.

      Fungibility: That isn't what "fungible" means, but if you want to expand the meaning to include everything that can be exchanged for money, it doesn't actually help your argument, because what I am claiming is that the freedoms we invest in the State ARE things of value (which absolutely can be exchanged for money) and therefore DO constitute good consideration for which we should be considered shareholders.

      The citizen dividend model I am proposing is in fact an extremely minor conceptual tweak, clarification even, to the capitalist model. I have no idea why you seem to think it is "socialist".

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    13. \\I'll still rely on the theory-based diagnosis and recommendations of the oncologist, thank you very much.

      Hah. Only, there still NO theory of cancer.
      If you not inclined to call THEORY just any random bunch of observations and plausible explanations of it, that showed itself as seems like working. Are you?

      You have not big respect of hard science, am I right?
      Theories of math and physics.
      Do not hesitate to admit it, I will not use it against you. I just need it to understand your standpoint, your worldview better.


      \\Moreover, you're falling into the trap of privileging your experience as REAL

      Hmm... so you trying to say here, that country that was named USSR, is just a figment of my imagination?
      And all artefacts of its existance: roads, buildings, monuments and books is just ethereal??? :)))
      Millions of people who still alive, who was living there and remember many things -- also not real?
      Or NOT ENOUGH real to be regarded as firm and relible source of facts about History and Economy?


      \\, and dismissing mine as just theoretical,

      That is you are one who said "go take some first year law courses". And while I count that as legitimate way to rise level of discussion. Same time it looks like ad hominem and attempt to belittle opponent,
      INSTEAD of answering to the core concerns of his questions.

      Do you know about Pyramid of refutation (like from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg or here https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_disagreement):
      Levels on the hierarchy
      >> Refuting the central point
      The most convincing form of disagreement. Here you identify the main point someone is making and destroy it. The difference between this and DH5 (Refutation) is that there's no room for error - you pick the central message being conveyed by the opponent and suggest why it is flawed.
      >> Refutation
      Use their own words against them! Take the argument provided by the opponent and show how it is wrong using quotes extracted from it.
      >> Counterargument
      Rather than simply stating the opposite case, do so while backing it up with reason and evidence.
      >> Contradiction
      Making it known you disagree by reversing whatever the opposing speaker said.
      >> Responding to tone
      Complaining about the way that someone said something, rather than what was actually said.
      >> Ad Hominem
      You're familiar with this, and it comes in many guises - associative, ad fidentia (or confidence attack), abusive, circumstantial and hypocritical. Effectively attacking the authority of the speaking instead of the argument.
      >> Name-calling

      to be continued...

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    14. \\Let me just mention, then, that I have not merely studied stuff in school. I have practiced and taught law, I have incorporated companies and negotiated contracts, and otherwise engaged in real world economic activity. My "theory" is every bit as much informed by the Real World as yours is.

      And I was living my life in USSR and now post-soviets. And I am not only absorbed it through ordinary firsthand life experiences, but studied history, and economy, and other sciences, to have MY OWN informed opinion about it, and not just replicate propaganda that was fed to me in school.

      And... and here is CRUCIAL difference -- I talking about what WAS, with facts that can be tested,
      while you talking about what only COULD BE.


      \\Fungibility: That isn't what "fungible" means, but if you want to expand the meaning to include everything that can be exchanged for money, it doesn't actually help your argument,

      Quite contrary. "Fungibility of freedoms" will make it easier to rob people off any freedoms.
      And that is my claim.

      More than that -- that is quite socialistic claim.
      As when socialists rise against status quo -- they do point exactly to that apparent injustice -- of wealthy people becoming more wealthy while poor only poorer.
      From all kinds of em, from "green" socialists to the very hardcore marxists.


      \\ because what I am claiming is that the freedoms we invest in the State ARE things of value (which absolutely can be exchanged for money) and therefore DO constitute good consideration for which we should be considered shareholders.

      That is not what I was asking.
      Question was: Do you agree to that, that such binding contracts can be (and would be) used to enslave people?

      Again, do not hesitate to admit it.
      I will not use it to name-call or denigrate you. We can continue our discussion where you'd explain to me how do you see that "rules of enslavement" can be introduced, and how it'll work -- as you imagine it.


      \\The citizen dividend model I am proposing is in fact an extremely minor conceptual tweak, clarification even, to the capitalist model. I have no idea why you seem to think it is "socialist".

      Well, you can start calling it "anti-socialist". :)
      I am not don Kihot, and do not fight with windmills. Another word, with a mere words.
      But I inclined to explore and to oppose core ideas, as I see fit.

      Delete
    15. I genuinely do not understand what exactly it is that you are objecting to. I have been formulating a theory of sovereignty and law in the liberal (as in, freedom-loving, not opposite-of-conservative) state, in which the state is analogous to a corporation and its citizens are its shareholders. This is a theory meant to explain (1) why we as citizens may be bound by the laws imposed by a democratically accountable "board of directors", and (2) why that state has a duty towards its citizens.

      I understand a distrust of the very idea of government. (This is actually WHY I am advocating for a model where government is democratically accountable and the state itself is constituted as "owned" by the people", because the alternative is some kind of tyranny by the strongman who commands the loyalty of the people with the guns.) A great many different sorts of policy approaches can fit under this umbrella, but the one I'm talking about is one that relies for the most part on decentralized market mechanisms for its economic model.

      What SPECIFICALLY do you take to be "socialist" about the idea of a citizen dividend in which every citizen receives a share of the proceeds of the state's enterprise (broadly understood to include all revenue-generating activities, taxes, resource royalties, etc. that are carried out by the Crown), IN ADDITION to whatever they might earn through their own participation in the market as workers, entrepreneurs, etc.?

      Delete
    16. \\I have been formulating a theory of sovereignty and law in the liberal (as in, freedom-loving, not opposite-of-conservative) state, in which the state is analogous to a corporation and its citizens are its shareholders.

      That's it.
      You only _formulating_ theory.
      While *I* have had a sad experience LIVING in such a state.
      See the difference? ;)

      That is as living throught cancer treatment vs theoretical mussings about it.


      \\"owned" by the people", because the alternative is some kind of tyranny by the strongman who commands the loyalty of the people with the guns.

      So, tyranny of financial bookworms and burocrats do not bother you at all?
      Well, I see it granted, as you never was in such a state... while *I* was.
      And what I can say 'bout it? It stinks!!!


      About last one.
      We do not need to talk about it theoreticly only.
      There IS, do exist, state where they did exactly what you do propose -- UAE, where that place Crown benevolently shared own riches with a crowd.

      But there is a Reason why that works there, and why it hard to replicate elsewjere.

      And that is:
      1) Stunning amount of that riches, in petro-dolars.
      2) Relatively small amount of that crowd.
      3) State of the world in general, which allow such country to exist (market of oil, market of labour, no enemies that would try to grab that riches)

      Delete
    17. Well, that's helpful in identifying some of the assumptions. Thanks.

      Two assumptions I think you're making that are unfounded here.

      First, you're assuming financial bookworms and bureaucrats after the Soviet model, or more to the point, in a system where the Rule of Law has not been established. Rule of Law is not an automatic thing; it requires a critical mass of people, particularly within the government, to accept and maintain it. But where it DOES exist, it can effectively tame the corrupt tyranny of officials, as it does reasonably well here in Canada and most other common-law countries. (Also, the system of dividends I am proposing doesn't give bureaucrats much in the way of discretionary power anyway; every citizen is, without exception, entitled to the dividend as of right, without any kind of means test or qualification beyond registering for it in the first place, which we already do to pay taxes and such.)

      Second, and this is partly due to my lazy use of "minimum income" to contrast with "minimum wage", which implies a specific amount. In fact, my proposal is structured VERY much like the dividends of an ordinary business corporation, including the requirement that dividends can only be declared on PROFITS. Often corporations decline to issue dividends at all, even if they DO show a profit for that year, if they are reinvesting earnings in future growth. But the point here is that the amount of dividend is necessarily limited by what the government can afford to pay, and there is no guarantee that the dividend must be enough to live on without other employment. The actual amount of the dividend would depend on how much revenue the government could pull in from its various sources.

      (That is an oversimplification, because I don't actually want to rule out the possibility of occasionally running a deficit when needed to stimulate the economy through more generous dividends when needed, but I don't want to stray off into a digression here about monetary theory.)

      That said, I think you severely underestimate the wealth of a well-managed state and the level of dividend it could support. The very fact that we have billionaires at all indicates that there is a tremendous amount of surplus produced, and I do suggest that there is a LOT of room for improvement in our existing taxation system, including adding additional progressive brackets for higher and higher income levels. It's kind of absurd that our income tax system is progressive only up to about half a million in annual income, at which point it becomes a flat tax.

      Delete
    18. //First, you're assuming financial bookworms and bureaucrats after the Soviet model

      Feel free to demonstrate that there is more types of bureaucrats and/or that different types working differently.
      Burden of proof is on you here, remember.



      \\Rule of Law is not an automatic thing;

      Again. You repeating my exactly point. And doing that with a smug face of a mentor. :)


      \\But where it DOES exist, it can effectively tame the corrupt tyranny of officials,

      "And here... miracle occurs", remember?
      Again, burden of proof is on you here.


      \\ as it does reasonably well here in Canada and most other common-law countries.

      That's because you do not see, do not know aboput some hiden strings-pulling that happen under the hood of government. Corrupt and/or suiting someones private interests -- what I deem as meaning exactly same thing.
      But you can propose YOUR definition (as that oftenly happens), to pull yourself out of predicament.


      \\ (Also, the system of dividends I am proposing doesn't give bureaucrats much in the way of discretionary power anyway; every citizen is, without exception, entitled to the dividend as of right, without any kind of means test or qualification beyond registering for it in the first place, which we already do to pay taxes and such.)

      Hah.



      \\In fact, my proposal is structured VERY much like the dividends of an ordinary business corporation,

      Yet again.
      As I showed it from the start -- that is wrong metaphore you using here.
      With multitude of contre-arguments and clarifing qyestions.
      But you do ignore that questions, and continue talking like there is NO problems with your proposal.
      Just stating the fact here.
      Not like that is something unusual.
      On my memory (and in all sources I have read) EVERY such socialistic bettering of the World proponent do just the same.


      \\But the point here is that the amount of dividend is necessarily limited by what the government can afford to pay,

      Ha-ha... so you giving to them this loophole, while bureaucrats of the government would have ALL means to tamper with booking to their heart content, to show "there is no money, see", to not pay it. :)


      //but I don't want to stray off into a digression here about monetary theory.

      But that is EACTLY what you need to demonstrate. To prove that you idea is not worthless.
      Due diligance of proposing any idea that is. Do I use that words correctly?


      \\The very fact that we have billionaires at all indicates that there is a tremendous amount of surplus produced, and I do suggest that there is a LOT of room for improvement in our existing taxation system, including adding additional progressive brackets for higher and higher income levels.

      Yep. Billionaires will readily agree wit your proposal and will happily share their wealth and power with ordinary bachelors. :)))



      \\It's kind of absurd that our income tax system is progressive only up to about half a million in annual income, at which point it becomes a flat tax.

      Quite contrary.
      Just give yourself a try to think -- to whom and why that could be benefitial. ;)

      Delete
    19. I want to stop here for a moment and ask you what exactly it is that you're advocating. I live in Canada, where we mostly observe rule of law and where we enjoy a relatively wide degree of freedom, and where our economy functions more or less according to capitalist principles. I'm proposing an incremental adjustment to the existing system that I think would make it more effective and indeed MORE (not less) consistent with those capitalist principles.

      (Actually, I wasn't even proposing this adjustment in the above post; it was just a parenthetical aside for why I'm not really a fan of minimum wages as an overall policy. I've written quite a few other posts about the subject, so I'm a little puzzled why you seized upon this obiter dictum.)

      But what do YOU think we should do? Leave our system exactly as it is? Abolish it and replace it with something else? Make some different adjustment? If you don't think I should be advocating for a citizen dividend, what do you think I SHOULD be advocating for?

      It's not that I think you need to offer a particular better solution before you can criticize mine, because it would be indeed helpful to identify actual, even fatal, flaws in my idea. But the particular criticisms you're making seem like random sniping attacks, coming from often inconsistent directions.

      One of the absolute necessities of constructing a valid argument is establishing some kind of premise or assumption that your opponent/audience will accept, and it seems to me like you're evading acknowledging that there ARE any assumptions you might let an argument rest upon, other than a vague "socialism is bad" mantra that lacks any useful specificity as to what you mean by "socialism".

      Delete
    20. \\I want to stop here for a moment and ask you what exactly it is that you're advocating.

      Um... I admit it, I cannot claim perfect understanding of English. Some words or phrases I could get wrong.
      But still... in what sense apparent criticizing can be called "advocating"?

      You know about procedure of confirming PHD. There is such stage called debates, isn't it? Where opponents come to criticize position of a proponent to reveal flaws, to confirm proves.


      \\I'm proposing an incremental adjustment to the existing system that I think would make it more effective and indeed MORE (not less) consistent with those capitalist principles.

      \\(Actually, I wasn't even proposing this adjustment in the above post; it was just a parenthetical aside for why I'm not really a fan of minimum wages as an overall policy. I've written quite a few other posts about the subject, so I'm a little puzzled why you seized upon this obiter dictum.)

      YOU ARE *NOT* first one.
      Far far, far and far from being very first and very unique.

      Well, obliviousness to all previous attempts that is halmark of such proponents of "bettering the World". So, nothing new here.


      \\But what do YOU think we should do? Leave our system exactly as it is? Abolish it and replace it with something else? Make some different adjustment? If you don't think I should be advocating for a citizen dividend, what do you think I SHOULD be advocating for?

      To that last question -- how should *I* know?
      And well, am I have right or impunity to prescribe to you what to do?

      To everything else -- I can say only -- more education, more research.
      Half-baked proposals do not work.


      //But the particular criticisms you're making seem like random sniping attacks, coming from often inconsistent directions.

      I refuted CORE of your point. Idea of "citizen divident" being similar to ordinary shareholder's.
      You ignored it.
      What else I can do?


      \\One of the absolute necessities of constructing a valid argument is establishing some kind of premise or assumption that your opponent/audience will accept, and it seems to me like you're evading acknowledging that there ARE any assumptions you might let an argument rest upon,

      I saw it TOO often... that jinx called "if logic do not suit my case... da fuk with logic".
      And using of that rules of politness "one must not say something not suiting your partner in conversation, 'cause its impolite" as a club, to eradicate any viable criticism.
      So, go figure how to make use of this your suggestion.
      Can ask YOU? To explain it to me. :)


      \\other than a vague "socialism is bad" mantra that lacks any useful specificity as to what you mean by "socialism".

      I stated it from the very begining.
      Historical socialism. And there is no shortage of regimes that was, is and will try to proclaim being socialistic.

      But you shrugging it off as not important. And thing called History and its lessons as non-existant.

      Delete
    21. The text of a graduate thesis ought to stand on its own, and should have anticipated most of the objections the panel is likely to raise. My sense of the purpose of the defence was that it wasn't so much to defend the content of the paper but to satisfy the panel that I didn't hire someone else to write it for me.

      In the case of a citizen dividend, I never claimed to be the originator of this idea, but I do take ownership in the sense that I have adopted a version of it and built an understanding around it for which I assume the responsibility to explain and advocate. As I mentioned, Milton Friedman had his own version (and he was certainly no communist), and there have been many other variants besides.

      The reason I structured my version as a dividend is because of the many parallels between a business corporation and a state, particularly with respect to the fiduciary duties of the elected Board of Directors and the nature of the proprietary interest of the shareholder. Obviously there are certain differences (such as the fact that most business corporations allow variable numbers of shares to be held by the same person), but the overall concept (we own an abstract but quantified portion of the company as a whole rather than any of its discrete assets, and are entitled to vote for the board of directors who owe a fiduciary duty to the corporate "person") is the same.

      Your objection to constituting citizens as individual shareholders in the state seems to be based on the idea that we don't buy shares with money. That is, I argue, a superficial distinction, because we do give up something of value. I have already mentioned that agreeing to be constrain one's freedom to the laws of the state is itself a thing of value, as we see from other similar promises in contract law, but I also alluded to actual material property in land and natural resources. What gives the Crown the right to ownership of ANY of the many such resources it holds and exercises lawful authority over, but the fact that we the people recognize such a right? If I have given up my freedom to go chop down and use whatever tree I want for my own personal use, ceding authority over the trees generally to the Crown, then that damned well OUGHT to count as a material investment sufficient to make me a shareholder in the state. If you disagree, then explain to me why I should tolerate the existence of any state that presumes to tell me what I can and can't do without giving me some democratic say in its governance.

      As for historical socialism, you still need to be specific about what exactly you count as "socialism" and what exactly makes socialism so bad. There are those who call our Canadian single-payer health care system "socialist", yet it seems to work pretty well, especially compared to the private insurance model of the U.S. So I do not accept "That won't work because it's socialism and socialism never works" as any kind of valid argument if you don't make it very clear what you mean by "socialism", because clearly some things called "socialism" actually work pretty well.

      As for historical examples, there have been a few basic income programs piloted here in Canada (one in Manitoba in the 1970s, and one much more recently in Ontario), but they were shut down by newly elected Conservative provincial governments before their final results could be reported. The preliminary data was generally pretty positive, though.

      Delete
    22. \\The reason I structured my version as a dividend is because of the many parallels between a business corporation and a state

      Yeah... apart from most important. Corporations do not care, do not inclined to care, if not forced by outside force, about something like Human Rights.
      Only PROFIT!!!


      \\That is, I argue, a superficial distinction, because we do give up something of value.

      That thing we "give up" as you said DO HAVE value...
      but ONLY if it to the level of becoming slave.
      As it was in USSR. Where it was EXACTLY as you stated higher overall concept (we own an abstract but quantified portion of the company as a whole rather than any of its discrete assets -- in a form "everything is YOURS, citizen... but, you yourself can do only what PARTY says".


      \\If you disagree, then explain to me why I should tolerate the existence of any state that presumes to tell me what I can and can't do without giving me some democratic say in its governance.

      Gulag.
      Or... already mentioned Red Khmers.
      OR today example North Korea. Go there. And try to discuss with them your ideas. (sarcasm)
      About your right of "democratic say in its governance", while barrel of AK-47 would be pressed against your stomath.


      \\As for historical socialism, you still need to be specific about what exactly you count as "socialism" and what exactly makes socialism so bad.

      Damn easy. EXACTLY what you said higher.
      About "giving up" and "sharing pie", and etc.
      If you'll give up your rights -- you'll never be able to have a say.
      Slaves do not have rights! To say something about politics.


      \\There are those who call our Canadian single-payer health care system "socialist"...

      That your own semantical... well, I mean, political of course, problems.


      \\So I do not accept "That won't work because it's socialism and socialism never works" as any kind of valid argument if you don't make it very clear what you mean by "socialism",

      I see it as an argument in bad faith. As I pretty every time show what I mean, with vivid images even. To say that I do empty name-calling here.


      \\because clearly some things called "socialism" actually work pretty well.

      Yes, it is. Like producing nuclear weapon to harrass all World to force it to became socialistic too.
      Like making all country in a worker camp.
      And other such things.

      Well, there was some poster advertisment Potemkinski Derevni produced too.
      Pretty successful fake, which reassured some of Western celebs how good Socialism is for a country.
      As that "socialistic healthcare", and etc.


      \\As for historical examples, there have been a few basic income programs piloted here in Canada...

      Methodolodical problem here. Small scale experiments CANNOT provide viable data about how would work full-scale experiment.
      And full-scale experiment(s) is about Gulag, and Nuke the World Out.


      PS You have asked what my stance?
      Well, I see technologies as viable way to make this world better. And am I not right, given how better our lives became in past centuries of development of sciences and technologies -- independently from social ideas.
      As socialistic ideas have deep, deeep historical roots. And NEVER showed itself successful.

      And well, to your point -- isn't it more rational -- to became wealthy and powerful, a billionaire for example, and then try to push your ideas into reality? ;)

      Delete
    23. You are right that business corporations are motivated solely by profit without regard for human rights, but this is in part an artifact of the way we have structured business corporations law. Directors are deemed to have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the helpless (in that it cannot make its own decisions and needs to have natural persons act on its behalf) artificial person that is the corporation, which wouldn't be as big a problem if we didn't ALSO defined the "best interests" of the corporation in terms of how much money it's worth.

      But this is not an essential characteristic of the concept of a corporation. There are different laws for forming non-profit corporations, and even for-profit corporations can be constituted with a Unanimous Shareholders Agreement that creates different duties for the directors. And in any event, when I talk about treating the state as a corporation, I am talking primarily about (1) governance, in having its board of directors democratically accountable to the shareholders, and (2) ownership, in that any surplus or profit generated by the successful operation of the enterprise can be distributed to the owners of the enterprise, i.e. the shareholders of a corporation or the citizens of a state.

      The state, like a corporation, is a fiction. An abstract idea that we treat as a thing because it simplifies a bunch of processes. But what's really happening here, when I "invest my liberty with the state", is that I'm making a deal with my fellow citizens: I agree to resolve my disputes with them according to rules to be established democratically, instead of us trying to kill each other. Does that make me a slave? I

      See, what troubles me about your rhetoric here is that it sounds like you're not just attacking the idea of basic income as "socialist", but ultimately you're trying to undermine the very idea of obedience to the law itself.

      Delete
    24. \\The state, like a corporation, is a fiction. An abstract idea

      Ha-ha... so, still, you decided to double down on that -- that I and generations of my folks was living in abstraction.
      Well, in a sense it is right -- that abstractions with which bolsheviks did came to power NEVER worked.
      So they splintered it to try some other abstraction.
      Then again.
      Then again.
      Because ideas of socialism based on NOTHING existing in Reality.

      But still, state as a corporation... that is EXACTLY what USSR in it's late form was.
      Politbuto as a Board of Directors.
      Gosplan as it's Clerk Office.
      State Police called "Militia" was working only to "protect state property".
      And etc, etc, etc.


      \\I agree to resolve my disputes with them >>according to rules to be established democratically<<, instead of us trying to kill each other. Does that make me a slave?

      I highlighted most important part.



      \\See, what troubles me about your rhetoric here is that it sounds like you're not just attacking the idea of basic income as "socialist", but ultimately you're trying to undermine the very idea of obedience to the law itself.

      Do you following news lines?
      Recent Kazahstan aprising, thwarted in the sake of "obedience to the law itself".
      Now Ukraine.
      All was by Putin under guise of "we came to instil ORDER of LAW and DEMOCRACY".

      So, are you with me... or with Putin?

      Delete
    25. So because Putin claims to be acting in the name of law and democracy, you reject law and democracy?

      I don't know if it has occurred to you that maybe Putin might be lying about a few things.

      "Rule of Law" is a phrase often co-opted by despots to mean "law and order". But "law and order" is when the people generally obey the law; "rule of law" is when the government obeys the law. I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp, especially if you think that governments are the source of law (or if like Mao, you think political power grows from the barrel of a gun), but there really is an important distinction to be made if we are to have anything remotely like human rights.

      This is why I spoke of the agreement to resolve our disputes as the genesis of a properly constituted state. At its core, law is a tool for resolving or avoiding or mitigating disputes over what is to be done, and it works like this: the parties to a dispute present evidence and argument to an impartial arbiter, who considers their claims and decides in accordance with generally accepted principles of justice (which is what I was getting at with "rules to be established democratically") rather than by personal loyalties or preferences.

      I have quite a few essays on this blog explaining how I think about these concepts in greater detail. Perhaps you could read a few of them?

      Delete
    26. \\\So because Putin claims to be acting in the name of law and democracy, you reject law and democracy?

      Have nothing to answer, so you start trying to find a chink in me.

      Better YOU explain to me here -- how Putin CAN do all that crimes... AND NOT BE PUNISHED by your "law and democracy"???

      For better understanding for you. I'm Ukrainian. And that is me and my folks Putin do bombing out.
      So, choose you words more wisely, if you can, please. Am I polite? Am I clear enough?


      \\\I don't know if it has occurred to you that maybe Putin might be lying about a few things.

      We know ALL about Putin's lies here.



      \\\"rule of law" is when the government obeys the law.

      Yeah... and that's exactly why Pearl Harbour happend.
      Because government was seeing danger, but being lawful was not able to act, until...

      In current day and time that could be TOO DAMN LATE.


      \\\I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp, especially if you think that governments are the source of law (or if like Mao, you think political power grows from the barrel of a gun), but there really is an important distinction to be made if we are to have anything remotely like human rights.

      No problem. Let's calm down, and try to discuss it with a bullets coming our way. Let's analyse em: why they so inclined to go at us? why they so inclined to kill us? (sarcasm)



      \\\This is why I spoke of the agreement to resolve our disputes as the genesis of a properly constituted state.

      In a process... that will not be "properly constituted state".
      But state in a state of transition.
      I know ALL about it, living in one such state.


      \\ At its core, law is a tool for resolving or avoiding or mitigating disputes over what is to be done, and it works like this:

      NOTHING works like this in a state that is not that well established, or in a state of turmoil.


      \\\the parties to a dispute present evidence and argument to an impartial arbiter,

      There is no "impartial arbiters", there is no evidances and arguments... and I do not need to go as far as to you trackster revolt. Can just point again at your own word -- so, where is your evidances and aguments?
      So far I saw only handwaving.


      \\\I have quite a few essays on this blog explaining how I think about these concepts in greater detail. Perhaps you could read a few of them?

      That's why I decided to talk with you in the first hand.
      You gave first impression of a smart fellow.

      Delete
    27. Because the rule of law is not operative in Putin's Russia, that's why he is not constrained by it.

      That's the thing about law: it ONLY constrains us if we voluntarily choose to abide by it. And that's why you can only have rule of law if a sufficient critical mass of people agree to accept it, and to expect it of each other.

      Also, law cannot create options; it can only prohibit them (though by doing so it is supposed to allow other options to flourish, which would have otherwise been impossible). So when the police or the military are using violence "lawfully", it's not the law that's doing the violence so much as the law is declining to prohibit violence in that circumstance. And if someone punches me, I cannot rely on lawfulness to stop them; I kinda gotta punch back or run away or use some other practical solution, and later submit to whatever judgment a court might impose if the Crown Prosecutor takes the position that I ought to be punished. (Remember I said that law is fundamentally a dispute-resolution mechanism about what is to be done? The dispute before the court isn't whether or not I should punch an attacker, since that's already happened and outside the capacity of the court to decide, but whether or not I should be punished for it.)

      Putin has lawlessly chosen violence. He doesn't regard himself as bound by law, so law's not the right tool to deal with this situation, though the lawful nations of the world still need to make their own decisions according to their own lawfulness. If Ukraine had already been a member of NATO, that lawfulness would have required NATO members to abide by Article 5 of the treaty and actively join the fight, but that's not the case. That doesn't mean it's not an option, but it does mean it's not a legal requirement.

      I'm not equipped to say what the best strategy here is. War is not my area of expertise. I do not have access to the intel, and I am not qualified to make any kind of informed estimate of which path is the least costly to defeat Putin. All I can say is that this is an extra-legal problem, and it arose because of the absence of rule of law in Russia, not because of the failure of rule of law in the West.

      Delete
    28. \\\Because the rule of law is not operative in Putin's Russia, that's why he is not constrained by it.

      I bet you know it.
      That is False Scotsman fallacy.
      Whenever some thing your previously defined as being of some kind, looks not good, you just re-defining your previous definition to NOT include that bad thing.


      \\\That's the thing about law: it ONLY constrains us if we voluntarily choose to abide by it.

      Thata big pile of bullshit.
      So what? All that criminals in jails are right? They all was put there in un-lawful way??? Because they never liked that laws they was injailed in accordance with.


      \\And if someone punches me, I cannot rely on lawfulness to stop them;

      Well, for the very least you not lost your mind to not understand that.
      That's good sign.


      \\and later submit to whatever judgment a court might impose if the Crown Prosecutor takes the position that I ought to be punished.

      So?
      How you propose to punish Nuke Swinging Putin?
      Or do you plan to do it post-mortem?


      \\\Putin has lawlessly chosen violence.

      Well, he have blessing from Parlament and doing it In Accordance with Russia Law.
      And his resolve based on support from people of Russia.
      And, isn't it just the same as in your country -- when canadians took part in some USA's wars?
      And Hitler (well, his party, but that's minor detail) was elected democratically.

      So, what is your definition of "law and democracy" again?


      \\\If Ukraine had already been a member of NATO, that lawfulness would have required NATO members to abide by Article 5 of the treaty and actively join the fight, but that's not the case. That doesn't mean it's not an option, but it does mean it's not a legal requirement.

      That's not fact.
      That is EXACTLY what Putin trying to find the way to workaround.
      With his hybrid tactics.
      Like claiming that it's not him, it's "people's free will and seeking of independence".
      He using loopholes in International Laws.



      \\\I'm not equipped to say what the best strategy here is. War is not my area of expertise. I do not have access to the intel, and I am not qualified to make any kind of informed estimate of which path is the least costly to defeat Putin. All I can say is that this is an extra-legal problem, and it arose because of the absence of rule of law in Russia, not because of the failure of rule of law in the West.

      Yeah. Now I see it, that you are lawyer. :)

      Well, you are NOT right. That is not "extra-legal" problem.
      Absolutely not.
      After Nurnberg's Trial.
      Where definition of Crimes Against Humanity was given.

      That you are as someone with such education do not know that... that is deeply disturbing.

      Delete
    29. From the very beginning of this thread, you've been treating it as some kind of dominance contest, a battle of wits in which to score points and win. I've indulged that because my basic rule when dealing with trolls is that if they raise anything like a point that SOMEONE in the audience might legitimately wonder about, I'll address it, even if the troll might not be arguing in good faith.

      It's clear by now, though, that you're determined not to understand my arguments. I'll just close with this observation: consistently failing to understand things is not a great strategy to show off how smart you are.

      Delete
    30. \\\From the very beginning of this thread, you've been treating it as some kind of dominance contest, a battle of wits

      Do you know that Logic have only two values -- True or False? Or maybe you prefer some other kind of logic?
      There is different kinds. Though rarely used. Fuzzy Logic for example. Where to any statement can be assigned that it somewhat true.
      If true, then please state which one is more preferable for you so I can adjust.

      And yeah, debates, discussions --- it's "battle of wits". Well, it was. But maybe there is some new law about it, that changed it? :)

      Well, if that kind of logic you'd like is just "everithing I say is Truest Truthes, while everithing THEY say is Nastiest Lies"... you can call me a troll right away, because I have nothing but LOLs to such stance.


      And well, also, as it was stated from very beginning. Nowaday, every one on the internet have his separate account and sovereign rights to ban literaly anyone. So, trying to just talk became looking like taking a beachhead on the hostile territory. :) (feel free to blame ME for that)

      Earlier, there was forums, where only designated people -- moderators was using that right. And indiscriminate banning, just that moment someone feels at lose, was not that rampant.


      \\ in which to score points and win.

      Well, you have told here, higher, about "dispute-resolution mechanism".
      Isn't that "dispute-resolution mechanism" is ALL about scoring point and winning???


      \\I'll address it, even if the troll might not be arguing in good faith.

      I encourage you to say it clear, that I was "not be arguing in good faith."
      Could you?
      Loud and clear.
      Without hypocritical whataboutism.


      \\It's clear by now, though, that you're determined not to understand my arguments.

      And? What about you?
      I myself see no problem to explain myself in details.
      But... it seems you are not inclined to take my arguments seriously and try to refute anything of what I have told.
      But it seems, that You only trying to find way out, through blaming me, through ad hominem attacks... just the tactics I described in the very beginning "PS Feel free to call me "troll" and close anonimous comments alltogether.:)"


      \\ I'll just close with this observation: consistently failing to understand things is not a great strategy to show off how smart you are.

      Do you know such thing? Known as Danig & Kruger effect?

      Delete
    31. It is you who are trying to refute me, remember? YOU disavowed having to prove anything.

      Before you refute me, you should make an effort to understand what I am saying, rather than impose your own preferred meanings for concepts like "fungible", "corporation", and "rule of law", meanings which make it conveniently easy for you to dismiss the ridiculous position that follows, as an easier substitute for engaging with my ACTUAL claim. As a general rule of rhetorical practice, I try to avoid naming fallacies in the course of argument as a lazy and usually incorrect practice (see "No True Scotsman", "ad hominem", "whataboutism" above) so I will leave it at that.

      I've written enough on this here. There are other posts on my blog about my thoughts on taxation and monetary theory and the purpose of law, and I encourage you to read those if you want to understand my position. You can even comment on them if you have questions to ask or insights to share. But it's my view that anyone who's been reading this thread in good faith should by now have gained all they're going to gain from it, and your challenges are adding nothing to their understanding.

      Frankly, I am having a hard time shaking the feeling that your agenda is more broadly to undermine belief in and support for the rule of law. Whether that's directly in service of Putin's troll farms or merely the inadvertent act of what the KGB used to call a "useful idiot" does not matter. I'm not interested in defending views I don't hold, and it's a waste of effort to try to convince you I don't hold them.

      Delete
    32. \\It is you who are trying to refute me, remember? YOU disavowed having to prove anything.

      Yeah. Old Classic. "Unbeatable" argument -- "NO, it is YOU who are fool here". :)
      Passing blame game, if I useing this words correctly.

      What I need to PROVE to you? And most important -- HOW???
      While you showing each time that you have no respect to any logical and factual inferences.
      And like that Hampty-Dampty just keep claiming that "my words mean only what *I* want em to mean".


      \\Before you refute me, you should make an effort to understand what I am saying

      I provide my countre-arguments EXACTLY for the sake of better understanding of your words.
      That is called logical analysis -- one need to test logical and factual correctness of claims given.


      \\, rather than impose your own preferred meanings for concepts like "fungible", "corporation", and "rule of law", meanings which make it conveniently easy for you to dismiss the ridiculous position that follows, as an easier substitute for engaging with my ACTUAL claim. As a general rule of rhetorical practice, I try to avoid naming fallacies in the course of argument as a lazy and usually incorrect practice (see "No True Scotsman", "ad hominem", "whataboutism" above) so I will leave it at that.

      So? there is NO such thing as "fallacy"? :)


      \\Frankly, I am having a hard time shaking the feeling that your agenda is more broadly to undermine belief in and support for the rule of law.

      Hah. What a non-funny remark.
      You know, I listening Putin's media today (to know our enemy thoughts better).
      And, ta-dam, they saying pretty much the same with pretty much the same wording -- accusing Ukraine and all West World in "your agenda is more broadly to undermine belief in and support for the rule of law".

      Well, you are free to shrug it off, that resemblance.
      Blame it as dirty tricks from my side.
      But, heh, that would be exactly the same Putin's propagandists talking about too.
      Again.
      Here and now.
      Well, Putin's words "supported" with shelling and missiles blusts.
      While your... only with threats of banning.


      \\\Whether that's directly in service of Putin's troll farms or merely the inadvertent act of what the KGB used to call a "useful idiot" does not matter. I'm not interested in defending views I don't hold, and it's a waste of effort to try to convince you I don't hold them.

      That is usual talking point of Russians, who cite Putin's propaganda too.
      "You are from troll farms of Washington" and "your talking points written by CIA" :)))

      Delete
    33. Frankly, I am having a hard time shaking the feeling that your agenda is more broadly to undermine belief in and support for the rule of law.

      Well, that exactly what they did to Socrat -- blamed him for "undermining law and traditions" and for teaching youth to doubt claims of elders.
      And gave him cikuta to drink.

      Delete
    34. Haven't read Crito, have we?

      Delete
    35. Don't know that name.

      Delete
    36. Crito is one of the Platonic dialogues from which we get most of our ideas of Socrates. It follows his conviction and sentencing to death. His friend Crito comes to him in prison, having bribed the guard and arranged for Socrates to escape from Athens to safety in another city, and the dialogue is about whether we should obey the law. Socrates chooses to stay and accept his execution, rather than act unlawfully.

      "I knew Socrates. Socrates was a friend of mine. Anonymous, you're no Socrates."

      Delete
    37. Thank you for explanation.
      But truth is, that, that you used that history lesson as a base of your petty accusations, ruined it all.


      \\\Socrates chooses to stay and accept his execution, rather than act unlawfully.

      That is known political tactic -- to become martyr.
      If he'd fled, he'd ruined all his work so far.
      Most Probably we would not even know about him -- people do not like, do not venerate cowards.
      And that is Moral, and not Legal lesson.
      What can you say about place of Moral in life of Humanity, ah legalist? (can I even call you that? or you just an ordinary amoral and lawless opportunist, who using talks about "acting lawfully" as fig leaf ONLY)
      See. I can oppose you on this level too.
      While you probably have thought that pretended Moral High Ground posing can be benefitial only for you. :))


      Well, hardly you'd follow his example.
      Your ideas is half-assed whataboutisms nobody will follow, nobody wil die for.

      Delete
    38. I already knew that you were willing to argue about things you don't actually understand, based on the ways you were trying to attack my positions.

      But now you have made that irrefutable and obvious to any impartial third party who might be reading this thread. I have studied Crito and other Platonic dialogues, and you have not, yet you somehow think your interpretation of Socrates' argument is a worthy match for mine? I may well be wrong in my reading of Crito, but I've at least READ the damn thing! (And earned two degrees in philosophy, for what it's worth.)

      Delete
    39. \\And earned two degrees in philosophy, for what it's worth.

      Good for you.
      But that alone cannot be evidance of you always and absolutely right, and anyone who oppose always and absolutely NOT right.
      Or what? Maybe you really think that way? Who knows...
      Please state it loud and clear. That would be funny, but for very least you'd show that you have guts, to demonstrate your "thoughts from white tower" impudence.


      \\I have studied Crito and other Platonic dialogues, and you have not, yet you somehow think your interpretation of Socrates' argument is a worthy match for mine?

      *I* used Socrates as reference to a practic of resolving ANY disputes through discussions: with logic and facts.

      YOU used him as a club of Argumentum ad Authority.

      Well, we can discuss :-) which "interpritation" is more in his spirit, but we'll always will only stumble on that CORE missunderstanding. As you showed yourself, many times already, how hard it for you to talk about SUBSTANCE, instead of babbling about FORM. How hard to provide logical arguments and refutations, make judgment with your own thoughts instead of hiding behind wide backs of famous ones.

      Borrowed wizdom is not one's wizdom

      Delete
  3. Here, I googled it out.

    Title "Welcome to Private Police" from "The Bits of Fry and Laurie" Show from 80th.

    That proves that that ideas was nothing but laughing stock long-long ago.

    But here comes new and new people, and rise all the same stoopid questions.

    Sic transit gloria mundy. What else can I say. To make it without swearing.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Economists who oppose minimum wage hikes seem to forget that Money doesn't get burned up when you pay it to workers.
    When a large company takes profit in your community, that money is removed from the community. If some of that profit is diverted to workers, then the money remains in the local community where it continues to benefit the local economy.
    Adam Smith saw Big Business as almost indistinguishable from Big Government.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To the last sentence -- yap.

      Delete
  5. SUMMARY

    1//"I much prefer the idea of a minimum income structured as a citizen dividend."
    2//but what is the value of money given "free of charge"???

    1//The minimum income model I advocate is based on citizens collective ownership of the resources
    2//flick from Fry&Lorry Show exactly about that setup.

    1//So in my model, where citizens are constituted as shareholders in the state, what is it that citizens contribute for their shares? Most broadly, it's our liberty
    2//

    1//I am a cancer survivor. That means I am fully qualified to state authoritatively that having cancer sucks. It does NOT mean I am qualified to diagnose what you have as cancer.
    2//And that one would answer "you survived it? See, that means cancer is not that big deal as you trying to preach...

    1//And I will point out that this is not merely an investment of abstract liberty, but of actual, real material property
    2//Yap. Slavery.

    1//Your criticism seems to boil down to a vague general condemnation of "socialism", without providing any specificity about what you understand socialism to be
    2//And that is NOT accidental.
    That is proponents of socialism who >>>NEVER<<< have time to describe what they want to build in details. Sufficient details. That would allow to build and try Proof of Concept...

    1//just as the board of directors of a corporation is supposed to be accountable to the shareholders).
    2//Minority shareholders too?
    Reguar emploees too?
    Customers too?
    Some bystanders on the street too?
    Some economical rivals too?

    1//As for trading the right to breathe, you deliberately chose a problematic example to discredit the principle, which is really bad reasoning and should be called out.
    2//"If Logic do not suits my needs... da hell with that logic", ha?

    ...

    After that discussion became more vague and mostly gone into realm of your ad hominem attacks.

    ...
    THEN, you said:
    "So because Putin claims to be acting in the name of law and democracy, you reject law and democracy?
    I don't know if it has occurred to you that maybe Putin might be lying about a few things."

    Well, that moment I missed, yes.
    My EXACT point was, that Putin uses EXACTLY that reasoning -- "when I "invest my liberty with the state", is that I'm making a deal with my fellow citizens: I agree to resolve my disputes with them according to rules to be established democratically, instead of us trying to kill each other. Does that make me a slave?"
    "See, what troubles me about your rhetoric here is that it sounds like you're not just attacking the idea of basic income as "socialist", but ultimately you're trying to undermine the very idea of obedience to the law itself."
    WITH COVERTLY SUBVERTING of its meaning.
    There is a problem. Big problem -- WHO will be controlling those who are in control? Who will be deciding MEANING of words? Who will be judges???
    HOW we'd be able to force em to be accountable??? IF we apparently CANNOT do it here and now. With Putin.

    In accordance with your ideas, as I see it, that'll be NOBODY else but "Board of Directors" -- and that is EXACTLY what Putin have built in Russia, and want to spread around the World. An par with China.


    PS After your claim, that I do not pay attention to you wise words, I decided to reread all thread.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm not going to engage with you in this thread anymore. I've written other essays on this blog about the rule of law, the liberty investment/dividend, progressive taxation, and other related issues. I will probably write some more to clarify some of the misunderstandings you've demonstrated, but they will be separate blog posts on specific issues, not additions to this comment thread.

      Delete
    2. That's why I called it SUMMARY too.

      You can give your own. In my example.

      Delete
  6. I am forced to assume that silence from your side -- says it all. :-)

    ReplyDelete