Friday 4 March 2022

Understanding over Believing

  I've been thinking about this authoritarian epistemology idea for some time now, and I think I have identified a potential remedy. The idea is to stop thinking in terms of knowing (or believing-what-is-true), and focus instead on understanding.

We have long put a great deal of emphasis on the value of knowledge. For most purposes this is a perfectly serviceable value, and the pursuit of knowledge is certainly a noble calling.

But the problem arises when we take the authoritarian mindset into account. As I argued before, the authoritarian tends to see such things in terms of power, and in particular construes the act of telling someone something and being believed as an exercise of power. That's not a completely irrational model; the ability to persuade someone to do something is very much a kind of power. And as Voltaire said, anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. So it's not at all unreasonable to be wary of anyone trying to assert that kind of control over you, even if it's something as innocent as informing you what time it is.

The problem is this: when you regard the transmission of information as an attempted exercise of power, it becomes very tempting to resist being informed of anything, because being told something and believing it becomes a kind of surrender of autonomy, a failure of will. You feel like someone may be laughing at you behind your back, as if it's April Fool's Day and you're not in on the joke. And so disbelieving whatever you are told becomes an act of defiance and a demonstration of personal strength. What matters isn't so much whether you're right or wrong in any objective sense, but how bravely you stand against a more powerful opponent, which is why this sort of conspiracy theory tends to target The Government, The Mainstream Media, The Academic Elite, or whoever else might represent the dominant establishment view. Which is all well and good, because the establishment really ought to be challenged regularly, but when you adopt your beliefs just to be contrary, you're very likely to be wrong most of the time. Worse, you deprive yourself of the capacity to be right, because the more evidence is compiled in favour of the opposing view, the more your clinging to your wrongness feels like a grand display of heroic resolve. 


    That sense of heroic resolve isn't nothing. It's a legitimate emotional motivation, that need to feel some pride in one's accomplishments or worthiness, so maybe we can find a more constructive way to satisfy it.


    That's why I propose instead to focus on understanding instead of believing/knowing. Understanding is not a failure of will, but an accomplishment of intellect. If I explain my view to you, and you succeed in making sense of it and how my claims fit into your model of the world, that is your triumph; you own that understanding, and while I may have helped you attain it by making my explanation as clear and accessible to you as possible, I cannot command you to understand me. It is something you can only ever do for yourself.

    Moreover, once you understand a proposition, it's up to you to decide for yourself how likely it is to be true, given all the other things you understand about the world. Deciding that what I say is probably true is no longer a surrender of your autonomy to mine, but your own independent conclusion that you can take ownership of and can revise as you see fit, and thus not a sign of weakness. You can and should feel proud that you have successfully made sense of what someone else has to say, especially if it's something you might have been initially inclined to dismiss as obviously wrong.


    None of this is to say that you shouldn't be aware of the possibility of people lying. Quite the opposite: you should be always alert to the unreliability of anyone and everyone's testimony, whether they be lying, mistaken, confused or otherwise fallibly human. This is itself an important part of the process of understanding. It's just that you shouldn't fall into the laziness trap of dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as either dishonest or stupid, because that's generally just an excuse not to bother trying to actually understand them. They might well be dishonest or stupid, but it's dangerous to underestimate an opponent, or to see them as an opponent when they might not actually be one. 


    Nor should you completely abandon the possibility that the person might be mistaken in some way. You should try to start from the presumption that they're at least as smart as you are, and that if something seems wrong it's probably because you haven't properly understood it yet, but they might well have made some error in reasoning they haven't noticed yet. If you can identify and articulate exactly what this error is, that's a particularly glorious victory, but don't be too tempted to take shortcuts to it; you still have to really understand what they're trying to say to be able to pull this off effectively. 


    Once you shift from knowing to understanding, your real opponent is no longer the person you're arguing with, but the problem you're arguing about. If you can defeat the problem, you'll never lose an argument.


   

44 comments:

  1. I really like this part:
    "You should try to start from the presumption that they're at least as smart as you are, and that if something seems wrong it's probably because you haven't properly understood it yet, but they might well have made some error in reasoning they haven't noticed yet."
    I think it's very true, and it reminds me of something I've said before: if you are baffled by how someone can think, speak, or act a certain way, if you "just don't get it", don't assume the problem lies with them; assume, first of all, that you lack a key piece of information that, if you possessed, would in the very least elucidate the situation. You may still end up disagreeing with the other person's thought process, words, or actions, but you will no longer be confused about their epistemology.

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  2. \\The idea is to stop thinking in terms of knowing (or believing-what-is-true), and focus instead on understanding.

    EXACTLY my idea.
    Seems like I was able to convey it, to facilitate understanding of that simple (for me) idea, into your mind.

    Congrats!

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  3. \\The problem is this: when you regard the transmission of information as an attempted exercise of power, it becomes very tempting to resist being informed of anything

    Bingo! :-))


    \\Worse, you deprive yourself of the capacity to be right, because the more evidence is compiled in favour of the opposing view, the more your clinging to your wrongness feels like a grand display of heroic resolve.

    Yap!
    So, why you so clingy to yours? ;)
    Oh, yes, you already explained. "Heroic resolve".


    \\you own that understanding, and while I may have helped you attain it by making my explanation as clear and accessible to you as possible, I cannot command you to understand me. It is something you can only ever do for yourself.

    There is fallacy in that -- how do you know that Your Idea is Understandable?

    You must be know that piece of poetry. Jabberwoky. ;)
    It is clear, and accessible... but do it have ANY meaning?

    UPD: Yet one time, that is demonstration of making countre-argument.


    \\Moreover, once you understand a proposition, it's up to you to decide for yourself how likely it is to be true

    Little problem.
    Haven't seen even one proposition from your side.

    To be clear. I prefer propositions of the kind:

    1) All humans are mortals.
    2) Socrates was human.

    3) Socrates -- mortal.


    \\you shouldn't fall into the laziness trap of dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as either dishonest or stupid

    Yap!
    For example, I do not see you as one.
    Quite contrary, you are quite capable and seems like open to a new information.
    Only, it seems that you have little experience with discussing your ideas with worthy opponent.


    \\If you can identify and articulate exactly what this error is, that's a particularly glorious victory

    That'a bullshit.
    Really glorious victory would be -- mutual understanding.
    "Winning an argument" it's overly worthless and impossible to achieve as you described it yourself -- for most of the people it is impossible to admit own errs.


    \\Once you shift from knowing to understanding, your real opponent is no longer the person you're arguing with, but the problem you're arguing about. If you can defeat the problem, you'll never lose an argument.

    Triple-Yap!!! :)

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  4. Understanding is important, some things and some people however much I might come to an understanding about them, I'd still rather avoid. I'm not the argumentative type, so the winning or the losing of an argument matters not to me. Defeating problems is more important to me, since, if you're not part of the solution you become part of the problem. I've shut down many an argument with a simple phrase of "You could be right..." and kept it Moving, it's up to the individual to exercise their intelligence and discern their Sources of reliable information. If they've latched onto something or someone detrimental to them, it's can be difficult to convince them if their fealty has become more important than assessing their situation has become unhealthy to them or to anyone else. I can explain anything to you but I can't understand it FOR you.

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    1. Oh, the winning/losing paradigm is itself a problem. I try to avoid thinking of arguments that way, but I chose to use words like that in this piece because it's aimed at the sort of person who is already immersed in that kind of mindset. If you're really driven to "win" an argument, then you should be more tempted by the kind of glorious victory that a proper diagnosis and demolition of your opponent's argument represents, than by the cheap stalemate of simply refusing to be convinced.

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    2. I don't mind a good debate, but an argument to me just tends to put everyone on the defensive and usually solves nothing and convinces no-one, if someone feels they must Win and thus the other person must Lose, it just sets it up for nobody really being enlightened. Someone who debates topics, even if I never come into Agreement with them, I might come to a better understanding of their Point of View... by Debating rather than Arguing they keep their Emotions out of the dialogue.

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    3. \\Oh, the winning/losing paradigm is itself a problem. I try to avoid thinking of arguments that way, but I chose to use words like that in this piece because it's aimed at the sort of person who is already immersed in that kind of mindset.

      To understand that, can you?
      That what you put higher with such eloquency and smaggness -- that is beyond being obvious, for me as a foreigner who trying to talk in English.
      Because, if English native speaker saying something I do not understand -- to assume that that is because he is stupid -- that'll be promptly beyond rediculous. That'll be moronic, from my part. To pretend that I know all words meanings, all cultural contexts... better than mother tongue carrier.

      But, it seems, it is quite different from a standpoint of mono-lingual, mono-cultural person. Ones who was living in a shell of obscure and undiversified thought environment.
      "I am right, because everyone around me thinks and says the same as me".
      Echo-chamber, it's a place where one and the same echos reverbarate and repeat itself non-stop. :-)


      \\but an argument to me just tends to put everyone on the defensive and usually solves nothing and convinces no-one, if someone feels they must Win and thus the other person must Lose, it just sets it up for nobody really being enlightened.

      Bingo!
      But.
      "Everybody whinning about how poor one's memory is, but nobody whinning about one's wits" (c)

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  5. I am forced to assume that silence from your side -- says it all. :-)

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    1. So you said in the other thread, after I told you I would no longer engage with you in that thread.

      I haven't replied to your comments on THIS post because they're essentially aimed at personal criticism rather than the content of the essay I posted, and that's not relevant. I don't care if you think I'm a hypocrite, and I trust other readers of this blog to make their own judgments as to whether your comments are useful to them.

      Delete
    2. Clarifying questions, if you permit.

      Do you know some foreign language?
      Was you exposed to some other, different from yours culture at all?

      Because,
      well, that could be fallacy of my own -- assuming that you CAN understand what I am talking about.
      While you apparently CANNOT, because have no apropriate experience.
      Nobody's fault, but could render any tryes to talk with you as pointless.


      \\...aimed at personal criticism rather than the content of the essay I posted...

      Oh, please. :)
      Pot calling kettle black.

      Well, if that was sincere and not hypocritical trick.
      That only mean that you have low understanding of your own psychology, so your unconscious is free to play tricks with your mind -- like making you believe that you always and only right, and everyone around just do not understand it. :)
      Quite usual thing.
      And low level of self-esteam. Well, like usually bookworms are.
      Cannot solve for you this problem. From such a great distance.
      Only can say, that I was in your shoes, but managed to overcame my such limitations.
      Hope you'll make wise use of this my benevolent remark.

      Stay safe, and grow wise.

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    3. I speak French and Japanese, though not as fluently as English.

      Delete
    4. \\I speak French and Japanese...

      Than what's the problem with understanding my argument that your post idea about "knowledge vs understanding" is exactly like understanding foreign language?

      Or that's just a simple psychology -- when one cannot admit arguments from person one don't like?

      Even if it supports one's ideas.


      Well. There is one more hypothesis. Can I check it out too?
      It seems you are of that professional background, where people do mostly working with texts. But unlike interactons with real world, texts allow some hiden falsehood, that cannot be seen from within. Like, one can easily write something like "cornerless triangle" or "bottomless mountain". One who do accustomed with drawing can say that it's impossible to draw "cornerless triangle". By obvious reason. Because triangle MUST have corners.
      And persons with professions that interact with real world. That same automechanic for example. Would say, that far-far not all things is possible. Per se.

      While practicly ANY words can be written, and stitched together, and proposed to reader to make some clue of it.
      Like in poetry.
      Or for humor.
      Or for ducting phylosophical doctrine. ;-)

      That's why we need Logic. And intellectual debates to hone one's skills in destinguishing what is real deal thing, and what is... just a mere words.
      Or, that what I used to believe myself. But who knows, what if I'm not right? :-) Am I? Is this my "heroic resolve", wrongly applyed? :-))

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    5. Because understanding someone's argument requires more than merely knowing what each of the words means and parsing the grammar of the sentence. There are usually multiple alternative ways to interpret someone's meaning, and we need to take into account a good many contextual cues before we can settle upon the "right" one with any confidence. Most of the time, this happens unconsciously, at least in our native language, and the correct meaning just seems so obvious that the alternatives are literally what jokes are made of.

      Moreover, words frequently migrate into new meanings by analogy, and making sense of them requires identifying which features are relevant to the new context and which are not. For example, everyone knows what a tree is, but if I start talking about a family tree, you need to recognize that the branching structure is the important analogy, and not get distracted arguing about bark or squirrels or lumber or photosynthesis.

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    6. Talking in truisms surely can give to one some fleur of never err. But same time it adds nothing to a discussion.
      Well, if that is what you want to achieve -- you won here. :)

      Delete
  6. Well, Russians start talking about Thrd World War.
    So, any discussion can become void and very soon.

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  7. Let's test you phylosophical degrtees.

    What is the difference between FORM and SUBSTANCE? And why it matter?

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    1. If you want to make a point about form and substance that is relevant to the post about believing/understanding, then do so. But I'm not interested in proving my academic credentials here.

      Delete
    2. Most surely you KNOW that scene from Duma's Three Musketeers.
      With Portos and his back side. ;)

      Well, you told me ALL about real value of your "academic credentials" already.

      Trying to point at problems with "form vs substance" would be pointless... by the reason precisely state by you in this post itself.

      Happy life to you, my little D&K.

      PS And hah... delete this comment, or maybe ALL of my posts -- to prove my point even more deciesively.
      Or leave it... to prove that you do not have in that little shame and/or brains. :))))

      Delete
  8. ...and I think I have finally figured out what ties them all together: authoritarianism.

    Yes. One who claims that "A and not-A cannot be true simultaneously" is an authoritarian.(or you conviniently just do not understand what I'm talking about, are you? cannot understand it?)

    Seems like I solved this problem fer ya. :)))


    \\For now, the point is that to the authoritarian, this is how it works: someone who knows (an authority) transmits knowledge to someone who doesn't.
    So why do I say the authoritarian is about power? Because in this model, the authority isn't just sharing knowledge; they're actually telling someone what to think.

    Please point at AT LEAST ONE difference from how YOU behave. :)))


    \\that sees discourse as a childish game of tricking other people into believing falsehoods while trying to avoid believing anything anyone might tell you.

    Isn't that's EXACTLY what you trying to do... in regard to my words. :)))


    \\Note that this was the very same government agency she had cited to prove her position, which she glibly dropped as not credible the instant it went against her. What could possibly be more hypocritical?

    Yep. What can it be... :)))
    Maybe, just maybe, declaration that "everybody who do not understand ME-e-e-e... is nasty authoritaian".
    Just may... be. (chuckled)


    \\she was simply trying to protect herself from having her Deeply Held Belief weakened by attempting to demoralize and discredit any belief/person

    Yep. Look into that mirror. Just look.
    Or.
    That was last year post.
    So, who knows, maybe you adopted that stance yourself, as more powerful. Already. :)))


    \\ I think this is why they use so many basic logical fallacies in argument...

    Ha-ha-ha... isn't that's EXACTLY why before in previous thread you declared that logical fallacies do not exist? :)))


    \\If you call them on it, pointing out "That's an ad hominem fallacy", they don't pay any real attention to the substance of why ad hominem is a form of non sequitur because the conclusion ("you're wrong") does not follow from the antecedent ("you're stupid").

    )))))))))))))))



    PS You ae so funny... with your brain.

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    1. I genuinely do not understand what point you're trying to make here, but it's clear you've misunderstood almost everything I've said, and too consistently to be by accident.

      The post you're quoting from (which is NOT the post at the top of this page) was about authoritarianism as an attitude that tends to see everything in terms of obedience or defiance, rather than sharing of observations/insights that may or may not be useful.

      Do you think I am trying to order people to believe what I believe? Do you think I am trying to exercise power over you? If you see it that way, you are probably labouring under an authoritarian mindset. But that says more about you than it does about me.

      I share my thoughts here on this blog because I find them interesting and useful and hope that readers might also find them interesting and useful, or perhaps improve upon them with commentary of their own. Readers will decide for themselves what they think about any of the matters raised here.

      They will decide for themselves whether your idea of who Socrates was and what he stood for should be taken seriously, and the fact that you had not heard of Crito, much less read it, is a relevant factor for them to consider, as Crito makes it very plain that Socrates was a champion of lawfulness. I am not making any argument from authority here as a person with two degrees in philosophy; I am referring the reader to the relevant sources on Socrates, Plato's dialogues (and also Xenophon's account of the Apology). No one need take my word for it; these texts are readily available in any library and on the internet for free. But if some reader doesn't have the time to go look stuff up, they MAY as a valid shortcut decide which of us sounds more credible, me or you, and in that sense they might reasonably take into account that I've read and studied the subject matter and you have not. Not as a matter of obeying the orders "believe this" from the higher ranking authority, but as an independent and autonomous choice that this source seems more likely to be correct than that one.

      The difficulty in understanding the differences between the authoritarian and the non-authoritarian mindsets is that each is its own trap. The authoritarian cannot help but interpret every attempt by the non-authoritarian to explain this idea as an attempt to exercise authoritarian power, while the non-authoritarian tries to look for substantive meaning and intent where it doesn't exist in utterances that are really moves in a game of social dominance.

      I should point out that I never said logical fallacies don't exist. In fact, I've been working on another essay about logical fallacies that may be posted by the time you read this comment. What I meant was that the authoritarian doesn't really see the names of logical fallacies as standing for a diagnosis of the logical form of an argument, but more as rhetorical weapons to be flung at an opponent in the contest for dominance.

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    2. \\I genuinely do not understand...

      That is first step to a wizdom -- admitting own ignorance.
      And I say it seriously. No tricks here. Nothing rethorical.


      \\The post you're quoting from (which is NOT the post at the top of this page) was about authoritarianism as an attitude that tends to see everything in terms of obedience or defiance, rather than sharing of observations/insights that may or may not be useful.

      And in the beginning of this post you stated pretty much clear: "I've been thinking about this authoritarian epistemology idea for some time now, and I think I have identified a potential remedy."
      So, connection between that and this post is pretty obvious, isn't it?
      Or, I again misunderstand something here?


      \\Do you think I am trying to order people to believe what I believe? Do you think I am trying to exercise power over you? If you see it that way, you are probably labouring under an authoritarian mindset. But that says more about you than it does about me.

      Your words look like that. From my side.
      But that is FORM... that's why I tryed to rise that question about SUBSTANCE to work it out around it.
      Well, you are doing same mistake here. Lebeling me as one who have "authoritarian mindset". Treating FORM, as unseparatable and precisely fused with SUBSTANCE.
      Or that is not mistake, still? Not sure for now.


      \\I share my thoughts here on this blog because I find them interesting and useful and hope that readers might also find them interesting and useful, or perhaps improve upon them with commentary of their own.

      Thank you.
      But I have had read it under your profile first.
      That's why I agreed to that challenge and came with my thoughts too.
      That's it.
      Fair and square.


      \\They will decide for themselves whether your idea of who Socrates was and what he stood for should be taken seriously, and the fact that you had not heard of Crito, much less read it, is a relevant factor for them to consider, as Crito makes it very plain that Socrates was a champion of lawfulness.

      I refered to Socrates as to the source of that methodology of free discussions, in a form of a dialogs.
      We have a dialog here, isn't it?
      Can we have it more socratic way too?


      \\The authoritarian cannot help but interpret every attempt by the non-authoritarian to explain this idea as an attempt to exercise authoritarian power, while the non-authoritarian tries to look for substantive meaning and intent where it doesn't exist...

      Yes. That looks like correct explanation of our troubles with understanding stance of each other -- with your own words.
      We both trying to find some ground with that "substantive meaning" as a base for a mutual understanding.
      I hope, still.

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    3. \\\\I genuinely do not understand...
      \\That is first step to a wizdom -- admitting own ignorance.
      \\And I say it seriously. No tricks here. Nothing rethorical.

      And I can point it out here, that I myself have no problems with admitting my ignorance (as it's freakingly impossible to know everything).

      For example.

      That time where I openly admitted that I do not know, didn't heard about Crito.
      While, I could claim "I know everything". And try to play it out as is. Or with googling for it, and coming up with some "fastfood knowledge" from Wikipedia.

      But what did you?
      You used it as authoritarian hardpoint. As a leverage against "ignorant and stooopid".
      And still continuing to try to do that.
      With your argumentum ad populi here. ;-)

      Well, I don't mind. Use your methods, and I will use mine.
      Just informing you.

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    4. It's fine that you acknowledged not having read Crito. Good. Thank you for that. But that wasn't the point. The point was that you tried to compare your attacks on the concept of lawfulness to the alleged subversiveness of Socrates, when Crito (and Apology, and heck, even Republic) show that Socrates was nothing if not a champion of lawfulness, even at the cost of his own life.

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    5. You overthinking it. (not a big sin, AFAICare, I myself tend to do this often).

      I used it as anecdotal evidance/example -- of person which was punished for being free-minded ONLY. :-)

      Not too refined, I know. :-))
      Sorry about that.
      Hope it'll mark as resolved that question.

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    6. What on earth made you think you were being punished at all, let alone for being "free-minded"?

      Delete
    7. Still, you think that I have NO rights of assessment of situation on my own? Have not enough brains for that? :-)

      Well... let's return to that thread, if you insist.

      Here is precise excerpt (dunno, why I can't see proper citations as base of a claims from your side? don't know Ctr-C,Ctrl-V magic? ;-)):

      Frankly, I am having a hard time shaking the feeling that your agenda is more broadly to undermine belief in and support for the rule of law.

      Well, that exactly what they did to Socrat -- blamed him for "undermining law and traditions" and for teaching youth to doubt claims of elders.
      And gave him cikuta to drink.

      Link: http://tcantine.blogspot.com/2021/10/making-economics-too-simple.html?showComment=1646058450161#c2468641099962779308

      I could google for that trivia myself, and provide here more links and direct citations. But we have an expert here, so I'll just list bare questions here:

      1) Isn't that is true, that charges to Socrates was about "undermining law and traditions"?

      2) Isn't that all trial was to disallow him to teach youth being suspicious of authorities?

      3) Isn't whole point of Socrates teaching is about becoming free-minded aka able to come to own conclusions from descovered again by ownself facts?


      And to conclude, yet one citation:
      ""\\And earned two degrees in philosophy, for what it's worth.

      Good for you.
      But that alone cannot be evidance of you always and absolutely right, and anyone who oppose always and absolutely NOT right.
      Or what? Maybe you really think that way? Who knows...""

      4) Isn't that DIRECTLY resemble an argument you stated as viable yourself?
      Remember?
      "I may or may not be stupid, but stupid people can be right and smart people can be wrong. Show that my argument is wrong."
      From your most recent post to date.

      Delete
    8. Did you not read my question at all? I did not ask about what happened to Socrates; I asked about what happened to YOU. Why do you think YOUR treatment here is anything like a punishment?

      Delete
    9. YOU blamed me for "your agenda is more broadly to undermine belief in and support for the rule of law."
      THE SAME
      as it was with Socrates.
      Here, I even googled to be sure that that is not a figment of my imagination
      ""He was found guilty of “impiety” and “corrupting the young”, sentenced to death, and then required to carry out his own execution by consuming a deadly potion of the poisonous plant hemlock.""

      Pattern is apparent IMHO -- "you do not show piety, means you are guilty as hell". ;-)

      Well, to answer your question directly -- no, you have no power to punish me here. (banning, I assume, is more like self-punishment)
      But still, punishment begins with charges, and your charges, you blaming me, blaming unrightfully -- is apparent.

      Well, you can do and think what you want.
      I am here just because I like to entertain and share some thoughts.
      Still, you are free to make your own judgment, anyway.


      And here yet one thought, paradox if you want. Or impiety, before face of double-highcred-specialist.

      It is paradox of justice.

      1) If charges to Socrates was correct -- it makes him nothing but lowly criminal. No matter, stayed he to recieve punishment, or fled.

      2) But IF that charges was incorrect -- and Socrates stayed to show his "lawfullness" -- that makes him amoral hypocrite and enemy of humankind, one who placating injustice.

      So, I see it only as

      3) He stayed to become martyr. To throw unlawful accusations of his judges into their face. To show his disobedience to a morally flawed "lawful judgment" of hypocritical and corrupt "those, who knows better".
      And THAT IS what we still, after all this centuries, love him for.

      Well, you are free to explain to me how YOU see it. How you was teached to.


      PS Well, still, I need to admit, I feel fluxamoxed of how you trying to ask questions, while avoiding answering yourself.
      Are you wannabe prosecutor? :-))

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    10. I'm asking questions, and you find that problematic, meanwhile comparing yourself to Socrates? And you feel persecuted (punished, blamed) by my asking you to clarify your position because it sounds to me like you're advocating against the rule of law?

      I can tell that you still haven't read Crito, because if you had you would not have made this argument about the paradox of justice. Socrates makes it clear: the people of Athens who demanded he be tried for corrupting the youth of Athens are the ones who have abused the process of the law; the laws themselves are blameless. Laws can always be abused by those in power, but that does not mean we should reject the rule of law itself.

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    11. \\I'm asking questions, and you find that problematic, meanwhile comparing yourself to Socrates?

      Do you know any other method to prevail in a discussion, apart from doubling-down on already failed and incorrect arguments, I wonder? (rethorical question)

      And what in a world makes you think that I"you find that problematic"???
      Only problem I see, that I still not that proficient to answer in short. Wordiness is my sin. :-)

      And why shoud I be varry of comparing myself with Socrates, I dunno? Isn't he a great guy? What's so bad in trying to be, trying to measure oneself in his size?
      Or.
      What? Maybe you really think he is criminal? Or morally fallen bastard? :-)



      \\ And you feel persecuted (punished, blamed) by my asking you to clarify your position because it sounds to me like you're advocating against the rule of law?

      In our day and age, in this virtual realm called Internet, blaming someone became indestinguishable from punishment.
      And you knowit yourself.
      If only it'd be little more crowded here, or we'd have that discussion at some more public place, I most probably would be ostrachasied and obstructed by a crowd of your supporters, or even just passerbyes.
      And power to ban... which is given to pretty much everyone today -- isn't it like THE SAME as in time of Socrates -- people wanted just to shuddup him, but in that time it was possible only with killing him.
      While in our day and age -- banning is so easy and nifty thing. :-)




      \\I can tell that you still haven't read Crito, because if you had you would not have made this argument about the paradox of justice. Socrates makes it clear: the people of Athens who demanded he be tried for corrupting the youth of Athens are the ones who have abused the process of the law; the laws themselves are blameless. Laws can always be abused by those in power, but that does not mean we should reject the rule of law itself.

      First, go to my point number #3 higher.
      That's about me "not understanding".

      Second.
      You still not answered to me on that apparent question -- about nazi's anti-jewish laws. HOW it corresponds with your "rule of law is sacred" idea??? (well, I'll answer in your stead here -- Human Rights ARE Higher than any rules of law, as in "We, the People..." -- but you are free to ignore it, and continue your attempts to slurr me with your sublime accusation that I am lawless ;=)))
      Well, you tend to not answer to any of my direct and apparent questions anyway. :-)
      Just stating the fact.

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    12. \\Well, you tend to not answer to any of my direct and apparent questions anyway. :-)
      Just stating the fact.

      Oh, sorry. Got carried away. Of course, you answer some my questions here.
      It seems only that you tend to answer only that questions that you see as not harmful to your stance...
      While trying to corner me with demand to answer all and any of your questions, and better in a way that you decided for me to answer to be on losing side.

      Or... that is just a feeling I have. :-)

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    13. "In our day and age, in this virtual realm called Internet, blaming someone became indestinguishable from punishment."

      I said it sounded to me like your argument was aimed at attacking the very idea of rule of law, and you think I'm blaming you for a crime worthy of execution?

      I argue with anarchists all the time. It's an academic, intellectual discussion of the merits and flaws of ideas; blame doesn't enter into it.

      Or did you mean to blame me for favouring a citizen's dividend?


      (By the way, when I decline to address some of your questions, it's usually for one of two reasons. One: it's an irrelevant distraction, like the premise of the ad hominem fallacy, which can be safely ignored as having no bearing on the issue at hand. Two: I've prioritized responding to what seems more important, and if the currently ignored point turns out to be important later, it'll keep. One of the things I have learned about argument is that it's always better to focus on just one point at a time until it is resolved, rather than expanding everything in to what eventually just becomes a contest of identities.)

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    14. \\\"In our day and age, in this virtual realm called Internet, blaming someone became indestinguishable from punishment."
      \\I said it sounded to me like your argument was aimed at attacking the very idea of rule of law, and you think I'm blaming you for a crime worthy of execution?

      Oh, I see now, structure of your questions.
      I have had similar experience (surprising? no?),
      when I myself tryed to show some of my thoughts to the public:
      1) several people came, but nobody of them was able to provide any good thought
      2) most was talking steretypically unrelevant, like "not invented here"
      3) but one was of argumentative type (hah, yap, like me here :-) ), but discussion with him derailed into things,
      I pointed it to him -- was not and is not related to ideas of my initial post, yet less to any of my interests. And he quited and deleted all his comments to boot. :-)

      Why I write about it.
      Because this your words about "attacking idea of rule of law" and "crime worthy of execution" -- I frankly do not see, HOW it can be derived from my words, I spewing endlessly here... if only there is no some bias, some core misunderstanding in our talk.

      Well, if you want to discuss it THAT MUCH, I can pretend that I advocating lawlessness... well, no, I do not feel it that way, to do that even hypothetically.

      But still, and you might know it yourself -- that from ancient times there is a struggle around that "idea of rule of law" -- between legalists and... don't know correct name of that other stream in English.



      \\Or did you mean to blame me for favouring a citizen's dividend?

      My beaf about "citizen dividents" is solely about how unrealistic and logically flawed it is.
      Still, who knows, if that idea can be refined and used for a greater good.



      \\(By the way, when I decline to address some of your questions, it's usually for one of two reasons. One: it's an irrelevant distraction, like the premise of the ad hominem fallacy, which can be safely ignored as having no bearing on the issue at hand. Two: I've prioritized responding to what seems more important, and if the currently ignored point turns out to be important later, it'll keep. One of the things I have learned about argument is that it's always better to focus on just one point at a time until it is resolved, rather than expanding everything in to what eventually just becomes a contest of identities.)

      Well, yes. That's how it should be.
      Only, that question of me trying to "undermine rule of law" -- is misguided and distracting.
      Well, still, I proposed seemingly right way to make it on-track.
      With that question about -- "nazi's anti-jewish laws" -- what your sense of justice and understanding of rule of law tells you about *lawfulness* of such type of laws in question??? Should people be binded by such laws? Should it be attested as a crime to abide such laws?

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    15. The word "law" has quite a few different meanings, some of which overlap. However, I DID provide the meaning that I have in mind as I talk about "rule of law", and it's decidedly NOT whatever happens to be a written statute passed by a legislature.

      When I talk about law in the rule-of-law sense, I mean this: A mechanism for resolving or preventing disputes about what is to be done, where the parties to the dispute present evidence and arguments to an impartial third party (for example, a judge), who decides based on consideration of the arguments and application of generally accepted rules, not personal loyalties or preferences. (These "generally accepted rules" are themselves often called "laws", which is why it gets confusing.)

      Now, what is the rule of law? As I've said before, rule of law is when those in power are subject to this process of lawfulness. If the King himself should come into a dispute with one of his subjects, that dispute is referred to an impartial third party whose decision is just as binding upon the King as it would be on the least of his subjects. (In Canada and the UK, criminal cases are styled this way, in fact: Regina v. John Doe, where the Crown prosecutor acts on behalf of Regina, which is just Latin for "Queen").

      So the thing about the Nazi anti-Jewish laws was that they disenfranchised the Jews, disallowing them even to present evidence and argument. This is utterly incompatible with the fundamental principle of Law as I've described it. Were there "laws" in Nazi Germany? Yes, in the sense of statutes on the books that were enforced by the powerful. But that is not at all what I am talking about when I advocate for Law. That was virtually indistinguishable from just whatever the guys with the guns tell you to do, which is just raw coercion, the antithesis of Law.

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    16. That was interesting and comprehensive, thank you.

      \\Now, what is the rule of law?

      There is weak point in this setup you described. That is just about disputes in court. While most cases of applying law goes without it. Like you following orders from a policeman, or even waitress in a bar.


      \\ ...impartial third party whose decision is just as binding upon the King as it would be on the least of his subjects.

      That is most questionable. "Who will be controlling the controllers"? That "impartial third party". Who seems like having power greater then kings?


      \\So the thing about the Nazi anti-Jewish laws was that they disenfranchised the Jews, disallowing them even to present evidence and argument. This is utterly incompatible with the fundamental principle of Law as I've described it.

      Well, lets imagine they WOULD be able to "present evidence and argument", BUT if law says "jew going to gas chamber"... that jew will not be there when court start the trial.

      That was with segregation laws in your neighbour country too.

      And that was the case in USSR -- there was perfect laws, and even courts... and some people called "dissidents" tryed hard to make use of that laws... but result was one and the same -- they was put in jail, and even into punishing psychiatry.

      So, I want you to understand that my doubts based on some real-world facts and not my imagination.


      PS I hope that it can be seen from my words higher, that I am not *against* your position and definitions.
      Just trying to clarify some points.
      While generally totally agree with rule-of-law. Well, more then agree -- I, my country, here and now, dearly need rule of laws to prevail... in our "dispute" with Rusha/RFia.

      Well, have no objections if you will not answer questions higher -- that is not to continue dispute about smaller and smaller things -- just to show what and how I understood from your words, and what opinion have.
      Thank you.

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    17. Although I spent a lot of time explaining how law RESOLVES disputes, it's important to point out that the existence of this system also PREVENTS many disputes from arising in the first place, because people generally can anticipate how the easy cases will be decided if it goes to court, and conduct themselves accordingly by not committing torts, breaching contracts, or committing criminal offences. And this includes things like obeying the lawful commands of a police officer or the waitress in her capacity as agent of the property owner with the right to deny you access to the property, etc.

      WIth respect to the King submitting to the judgment of the judge in a case, yes, it DOES mean there is a power above the King's, but it's not the Judge. That power is simply The Law, and in rule-of-law countries we often express this with the maxim "No one is above the law." The judge is empowered to make a judgment that is binding upon the King, but remember that the judge's decision is supposed to be based upon the rules of general application ("the law"), not the judge's personal preferences or loyalties or whim. Most judges I have known in the Common Law tradition take this VERY seriously, and while they may disagree about what the correct judgment may be in any given case, they all treat it as a process of trying to find THE right answer. It's like if I give you a list of numbers and ask you to add them up; you don't think I'm asking you for your opinion of what number you'd like to see. You might make a mistake in adding them, but you still try to follow the right procedure to get the correct sum, because we all believe there IS a correct sum for any given list of numbers.

      As for laws sending people to the gas chamber and preventing them from having their day in court, yeah, that's exactly I say such laws are legally invalid. Now, legislatures pass invalid laws all the time, and people may obey them and enforce them, but as a lawyer I am interested in the arguments made about them and what a properly lawful court would decide. And the sort of argument I would make, and which Common Law judges tend to accept, is that any law which deprives someone of life, liberty or property without due process must be declared invalid. The U.S. Bill of Rights and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and similar constitutional documents in many other countries, even have principles like this enshrined in their texts.

      I would remark that the biggest failing of communist countries historically isn't necessarily the economic system per se (though I'm inclined to agree that it's a pretty bad economic system), but that they have tended to lack rule of law. (Consider Mao's dictum that "political power grows from the barrel of a gun", an inherently coercive and thus anti-law perspective.) Could you imagine anyone successfully suing Stalin in a Soviet court? No judge could ever rule against him, no such judgment would ever be enforced. Hence, no rule of law. And whenever anyone is above the law, corruption inevitably ensues.

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    18. \\...that's exactly I say such laws are legally invalid.

      But they are ENFORCED!!!
      Probably you never in your life was in situation where brutal force could or was used on you, am I right?


      \\Could you imagine anyone successfully suing Stalin in a Soviet court?

      Forgive my sincerity, but that is a bullcrap.
      Stalin was military leader in cheaf.(well, how he achieved that title, and how he used it -- that is one damn question, but well, western countries have their inner political brawl not less dirty, isn't it? "one who like sousages and honours politics, must not look at how they do it")
      And there even in your "rule-of-law" countries defined that orders of a military officer is undisputable, isn't it?


      Here.
      I googled for it and found.
      ""Legalism appeals first to laws and principles given by a supra-personal authority. Antinomianism attempts to make moral decisions consistent with internal values and personal growth. Situationism, while treating the rules and values of society seriously, violates these rules if human welfare is best served by so doing.""

      So, there is NO one and only point of view at rule-of-law.
      And... important clarification, laws cannot be SOURCE of rule-of law by itself.
      So, where and what can be that SOURCE... how do you see it?


      \\I would remark that the biggest failing of communist countries historically isn't necessarily the economic system per se (though I'm inclined to agree that it's a pretty bad economic system), but that they have tended to lack rule of law.

      If one's country system of laws have no private property laws... it's hard to compare and decide is it "lack of law", or just different system.
      Well, you have perpetuating practice of "those who have money, can buy their way out of punishment by law". So, I would not be so sure and swift with judgment which system is more corrupt, and you?

      Well. In USSR, as I have most knowledge about it. That is not economical system in particularly was that bad.
      But.
      Same problem as you in western countries have -- problem of leadership. You also have that recurring disasters -- companies, even biggest ones, gone bankrupt, because of stupid orders, inability to phatome the Reality and change.

      USSR, in my opinion, must be judged as ONE such company/corporation which unite all economical activity under one ruler. And that is the whole difference and big warming to a West -- if only you'd decide to go that way, and you going closer and closer to it, with super-corporations succumbing more and more power, economical at first, but political too.

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    19. They are enforced in the same sense that a mugger enforces his order that you hand over your wallet or he'll shoot. That isn't law; that's raw coercion.

      It's easy to confuse law with coercion, particularly in the criminal context where you're threatened with punishment (imprisonment, if not actual execution) for committing a crime, but I argue that these are two distinct processes that happen to operate in parallel. A law-abiding person refrains from committing a crime because they have a personal commitment to obeying the law, whereas someone with less commitment to lawfulness refrains from committing a crime because they fear the punishment. BOTH motives can exist at the same time and overlap, but it's important not to conflate them.

      Also, I would point out that it is NOT the case in rule-of-law countries that military commanders must be obeyed absolutely. Soldiers have a duty to obey LAWFUL orders, but there are protections under law for those who disobey unlawful ones. Under the rule of law, there are simply no absolute dictators; no one is above the law, and that includes the military.

      What is the source of rule-of-law? YOu're quite right that it cannot be any statute. It is rather a personal commitment on the part of the people in power. That's actually kind of how law works generally: people obey the law because they choose to do so, and people who choose not to be law-abiding will always be a problem for any society. If they have little power, then those with power can resort to coercion.

      And it is the people in power who determine whether or not you have rule of law, by whether or not THEY choose to limit themselves according to the principles of law. A powerful person who agrees to abide by the decision of an impartial judge, even if that decision goes against them, is upholding the rule of law. A powerful person who ignores the ruling, or worse, attempts to use their power to influence the outcome in their favour, undermines the rule of law. That's the essence of it.

      SO rule of law is really a kind of cultural norm. It ultimately depends upon the agreement of people in power to follow that norm willingly.

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    20. Thank you for your efforts. Now it can be seen that you really trying to discuss. But still, it seems, we far from mutual understanding (not the same as agreement).
      So, can I propose this method -- model situation. Similar, but still metaphorical, so there'd not be taste of ad hominem. But still, homological to our situation.

      Imagine two people who talk about automobile's motor. Mechanical engineer, one who make, or take part in making, new motors on a plant.
      And automechanic, one who repairs that motors on daily base.
      Engineer would have his hands clean, because he'd not be even closer to any manual work ever. Only with drafts and blueprnts, and most probably with 3D models on computer screen.
      While automechanic it always about greasy dirt and exhaust fumes, and dirty hands and robes.

      So, is it hard to understand -- that while they'll talk about same exactly thing (motor of an engineer's own car, for example, which he gave to automechanic to repair). Points of view and attitudes necessarily would be different?

      And even similar to our case. Like your highcred legalist opinion, to my mere bugger's. :-)
      But, is there some inherent lie, dishponesty in it? Some vile intentions? Behind that difference of points of view?
      I see none.
      So, it's important to keep that understanding of situation in one's head for all time -- that people have different points of view, and that is not bad thing... at all.
      Agree?


      And separate thank you. Our discussion starts giving some value -- separate new thoughts, as a surplus profit.
      Like this one.
      I came to idea that all that problematics of laws and justice -- that is not about laws itself. That is problematics of a language.
      Really, codexes of laws -- that is texts.
      And while language is a great tool, there is one inherent flaw in it -- words itself is meaningless, is mere labels.
      And as is allow world play and change of meaning. Like that famous "war it's peace" and etc.
      And we people became very proficient with it at very early age -- how to twist meanings of words to our benefit. Unconsciously even.


      And now to your comment.

      \\They are enforced in the same sense that a mugger enforces his order...

      That's blatantly not true.


      \\Also, I would point out that it is NOT the case in rule-of-law countries that military commanders must be obeyed absolutely. Soldiers have a duty to obey LAWFUL orders, but there are protections under law for those who disobey unlawful ones. Under the rule of law, there are simply no absolute dictators; no one is above the law, and that includes the military.

      In wartime too?
      And well, we all know that that is novelty. Emerged specially in time and after Vietnam war.
      Am I correct?
      And well, that is not the case... as we was talking about Cheaf In Command orders. (we was discussing Stalin, remember) Like to bomb out Nagasaki -- isn't that unlawfull order?
      Well, war time "justice" is separate case. I am not inclained to go into arguments about. By obvious reason.


      \\And it is the people in power who determine whether or not you have rule of law, by whether or not THEY choose to limit themselves according to the principles of law. A powerful person who agrees to abide by the decision of an impartial judge, even if that decision goes against them, is upholding the rule of law. A powerful person who ignores the ruling, or worse, attempts to use their power to influence the outcome in their favour, undermines the rule of law. That's the essence of it.

      So, the answer to my "who control the controller" would be "they themself". :-)
      Well, that's unsettling. And you know it yourself.


      \\SO rule of law is really a kind of cultural norm. It ultimately depends upon the agreement of people in power to follow that norm willingly.

      Well, there must be benefit. And a great one.
      As nobody would do that against own benefit, for a long time.

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    21. Yes, it IS unsettling, but there's no way around it. Rule of Law is something that only exists if there are enough people choosing to exercise their power in ways that affirm and preserve Rule of Law. They need to abide by lawfulness themselves, but also to demand it of each other. One of the ways to help this along is to structure a constitution in such a way as to divide powers; this was the idea behind the U.S. constitution, but that borrowed a lot of elements from English common law and parliamentary democracy, so it wasn't unique or novel.

      (And yes, actually, even in wartime military leaders in rule of law countries are always subject to the law. The fact that they sometimes break the law isn't a disproof of that; the question is how does the system deal with them when they DO break the law. Unfortunately politics often interferes, but it DOES happen that commanders and soldiers are sometimes prosecuted for war crimes. Most famous American example off the top of my head was Lt. Calley, court-martialled for the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. More recently there was a guy convicted of war crimes in Iraq but pardoned by Trump. And the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded in 1995 after the Somalia affair.)

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    22. \\ One of the ways to help this along is to structure a constitution in such a way as to divide powers

      That is symptom, not a cure.
      If country have several centers of power, diversifed political culture -- that centers can agree to work by that rules.
      But if political culture and actual political powers is unified -- well, you'd have Russia. Or China.


      Well, as I see it... we have nothing to discuss around this questions, am I right?
      Little bit pitty, as we seem like found the way to cope with each other differences in points of views.
      But, we can proceed on some other topics... or you have some questions you'd like to ask of me? You welcome.

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  9. Most probably this message will not come through. As you defensive walls to my words rised high. Too high already. Well, I have no evidance that that walls was low enough in the first place.

    But.

    Do you not think that it is imortant to find points of agreement?
    To work in teams.
    To be able to solve bigger problems.

    Instead of petty "debating".

    And have you an experience of it?
    I myself have had only little. And that is in small groups and about precisely stated, and payed tasks.
    NEVER was able to find anyone who'd agreed... past level of lip service to an identity policy or wide spread "Deeply Held Belief".
    So, what's we... you and me. Even battling for?

    PS Most surely you'd see it only as another hypocritical trick.
    While I'm deadly serious.
    But... whatever.

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    1. No, as I said above, I genuinely do not understand what you are trying to accomplish here. And yes, I do have experience working together trying to solve problems, both as a lawyer and as a mediator, two different approaches to dispute resolution.

      What is the point you're trying to make here?

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    2. Thank you for your response.

      Well, what I mean is easy to point out at -- solving big problems with multi-disciplinary teams.
      But, not that simple to come to an agreement -- how other people see it, feel about it.

      Well, that's my pet peevy for now. I could talk in hours about. Similar to what you do in your blog.
      But still not found people who'd listen to it. :))
      And here I talk about "as is".
      Just because it looked that way to me -- that you trying to ponder with similar problems. Different, but still similar, in a nutshell.

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